Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

[Katzpur]

So do you believe parts are true but not other parts? Isn't that like pick and choose being I just showed you we all are sinners.

Maybe you could just help @Trailblazer and me out here, because we both appear to be confused. Perhaps if you could explain which sin, specifically, a newborn baby is guilty of having committed, we could understand your position better.

 

[We Never Know]

Maybe you could just help @Trailblazer and me out here, because we both appear to be confused. Perhaps if you could explain which sin, specifically, a newborn baby is guilty of having committed, we could understand your position better.

From my wife's family....

We are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the spirit of god, we will never see the kingdom of god

John 3:3 (ESV)
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[Thief]

Had Satan, demons, Adam, Eve, so on, taken the fast track to the tree of life and extreme power, ability, knowledge, etc -and not sinned, they could have learned the easy way....

knowledge IS the fast track

Man had been on the earth as a species......
no names ....no garden.... no law

go forth.....be frutiful....dominate all things

all fine and good.....until that snatch and run habit evolved
coupled to that urge to control

and we began to dominate each other

the garden event was an experiment to reset the course of Man
BEFORE we overrun the resources of this planet

Adam and Eve.....passed the test

 

[Katzpur]

From my wife's family....

We are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the spirit of god, we will never see the kingdom of god

John 3:3 (ESV)
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Did you notice that you didn't actually answer my question? I did. I didn't ask about what it is human nature to do. I asked what sin a newborn baby is guilty of having committed. Are you going to answer me or not?

 

[Colt]

"Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals. ."

 

[Katzpur]

"Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity.

YES! And for people who don't believe in God, it's deliberately going against what their conscience tells them is wrong.

 

[Etritonakin]

knowledge IS the fast track

Man had been on the earth as a species......
no names ....no garden.... no law

go forth.....be frutiful....dominate all things

all fine and good.....until that snatch and run habit evolved
coupled to that urge to control

and we began to dominate each other

the garden event was an experiment to reset the course of Man
BEFORE we overrun the resources of this planet

Adam and Eve.....passed the test

Not sure I know what you mean....

...but there is the knowledge humans can gain from their limited perspective and experience -which they hopefully don't lose in various dark ages, etc...

..Vs the knowledge of the original who designed and initiated the physical universe...

Even our temporary lives are by our design.
Consider the difference between God simply transferring our selves into invulnerable bodies after we are made responsible and righteous....

...vs humans taking the step by step path toward self-designing to immortality. It would be a long, slow mess at best - would not benefit anyone who lived prior -and would still not solve our basic problems.

 

[Colt]

It’s not sin that we inherit rather it’s an environment marred by rebellion, separation and confusion. It’s the influence of a bad neighborhood.

 

[Thief]

Not sure I know what you mean....

...but there is the knowledge humans can gain from their limited perspective and experience -which they hopefully don't lose in various dark ages, etc...

..Vs the knowledge of the original who designed and initiated the physical universe...

Even our temporary lives are by our design.
Consider the difference between God simply transferring our selves into invulnerable bodies after we are made responsible and righteous....

...vs humans taking the step by step path toward self-designing to immortality. It would be a long, slow mess at best - would not benefit anyone who lived prior -and would still not solve our basic problems.

I have not discounted reincarnation....
I have reason to hold off on that

otherwise......each birth is a NEW opportunity to form a unique spirit

 

[Muffled]

Where does it say that 'we are all born sinners'?

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 

[Muffled]

It’s not sin that we inherit rather it’s an environment marred by rebellion, separation and confusion. It’s the influence of a bad neighborhood.

I believe those bad neighbors were born.

 

[Muffled]

I have not discounted reincarnation....
I have reason to hold off on that

otherwise......each birth is a NEW opportunity to form a unique spirit

I believe that we don't remember much but there is still baggage that comes with us into a new life. Like Pilgrim in Pilgrim's Progress it is a great relief to offload the baggage.

 

[Trailblazer]

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

It does not say we were BORN in sin. It says we have all sinned.

 

[Colt]

I believe those bad neighbors were born.

Those neighbors were influenced by the betrayal of Lucifer, a son of God who's rebellion infected our world.

 

[alypius]

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Isn't a different thing to say that 'all have sinned' and 'all are born sinners'?

 

[Skywalker]

It does not say we were BORN in sin. It says we have all sinned.

Original sin is mentioned in the Old Testament. Original Sin | Encyclopedia.com

Possible Evidence in the Old Testament. The Old Testament makes no explicit or formal statement regarding the transmission of hereditary guilt from the first man to the entire human race; but such a doctrine harmonizes with the general atmosphere of the Old Testament and is hinted at in some passages. Thus, the story of the fall of man in Genesis ch. 3 explains the human condition, and this is marked by a universal tendency toward sin. Chapter 4 of Genesis (from the yahwist tradition, like ch. 3) illustrates, by a series of anecdotes, how sin has invaded mankind. Chapter 5 (of the Pentateuchal priestly writers) may show the same thing through its reduction of life spans (see also Gn 11.10–26, also of the priestly tradition), even though this would be a more subtle method. In Gn 6.5 a strong indictment is presented against man's universal inclination to sin, and the "justice" of Noe (Noah) is qualified by 8.21—a kind of divine resignation to man's sinfulness. Solomon's prayer (1 Kgs 8.46) implies the same, and Ecclesiastes is aware of some evil having entered into mankind (Eccl 7.20). The words of Ps 50 (51) 7 may be no more than a personal outcry, but many good scholars have seen a universal condition reflected in its words. Of dubious value is Jb 14.4 in the Masoretic Text, even if the Vulgate, perhaps through Christian influence, is most expressive. However, Wis2.24 is significant: "By the envy of the devil death entered into the world." In strict exegesis one may not call the doctrine of original sin, as defined by the Council of Trent, a teaching of the Old Testament; but the foundations for it are there, strong and undeniable.

 

[metis]

Original sin is mentioned in the Old Testament. Original Sin | Encyclopedia.com

It is not at all explicit, thus there's been many debates amongst theologians as to what it actually is. The idea that a child somehow inherits sin is the traditional view but that seems nonsensical to many others, including myself.

The word "sin" means "to miss the mark", so how could a newborn "miss the mark"? And if we supposedly inherit such sin, if your grandfather committed murder should we put you on trial for murder as well?

Some theologians believe it's likely more to be a reference to the fact that we will sin at times because we live in an imperfect world, plus we ourselves are imperfect, thus well be tempted to go against God's will, and we likely will sometimes.

 

[Skywalker]

It is not at all explicit, thus there's been many debates amongst theologians as to what it actually is. The idea that a child somehow inherits sin is the traditional view but that seems nonsensical to many others, including myself.

The word "sin" means "to miss the mark", so how could a newborn "miss the mark"? And if we supposedly inherit such sin, if your grandfather committed murder should we put you on trial for murder as well?

Some theologians believe it's likely more to be a reference to the fact that we will sin at times because we live in an imperfect world, plus we ourselves are imperfect, thus well be tempted to go against God's will, and we likely will sometimes.

Ezekiel 18:10-20 is talking about family members and their descendants in general, not about Adam having dominion over all of creation, including his descendants. To understand what a Bible verse means you have to know the context. When you read the Bible over and over again, you notice things that you didn't notice before. Original sin is mentioned in the Old Testament and Ezekiel 18:10-20 is consistent with it because it's not a verse talking about original sin.

“If he beget a son who is a robber, a shedder of blood, and who doeth the like to any one of these things, and who doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains and defiled his neighbor’s wife, hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath despoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, hath given forth upon usury and hath taken increase — shall he then live? He shall not live. He hath done all these abominations: he shall surely die. His blood shall be upon him. “Now, lo, if he beget a son who seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth and doeth not the like, who hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbor’s wife, neither hath oppressed any, hath not withheld the pledge, neither hath despoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry and hath covered the naked with a garment; who hath taken off his hand from the poor, who hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed My judgments, hath walked in My statutes — he shall not die for the iniquity of his father: he shall surely live. As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, despoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. “Yet say ye, ‘Why? Doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father?’ When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all My statutes and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him

 

[metis]

Ezekiel 18:10-20 is talking about family members and their descendants in general, not about Adam having dominion over all of creation, including his descendants. To understand what a Bible verse means you have to know the context. When you read the Bible over and over again, you notice things that you didn't notice before. Original sin is mentioned in the Old Testament and Ezekiel 18:10-20 is consistent with it because it's not a verse talking about original sin.

So, should we arrest and try you on crimes committed by your previous relatives? C'mon, that doesn't make even one iota of sense.

Instead, what many theologians believe is that it is a reference to the fact that when we sin we not only harm ourselves but also our family is often tainted and affected by our sin as well. This especially is compatible with the ancient view that what we do has an impact on our family and others, plus there's the fact that we will sin at times because none of us are perfect.

However, I will admit that my viewpoint above is not entirely compatible with what the Church came to believe along this line centuries later, especially in regards to infant baptism "for the forgiveness of sins".

 

[Skywalker]

So, should we arrest and try you on crimes committed by your previous relatives? C'mon, that doesn't make even one iota of sense.

Instead, what many theologians believe is that it is a reference to the fact that when we sin we not only harm ourselves but also our family is often tainted and affected by our sin as well. This especially is compatible with the ancient view that what we do has an impact on our family and others, plus there's the fact that we will sin at times because none of us are perfect.

However, I will admit that my viewpoint above is not entirely compatible with what the Church came to believe along this line centuries later, especially in regards to infant baptism "for the forgiveness of sins".

Infant baptism is not taught in the Bible. Babies are not accountable because they are not old enough to understand about Jesus. John Calvin The Tyranny And Heretic EXPOSED!

Just as Martin Luther (1483-1546) was a heretic for teaching the necessity of the sacraments (including water baptism) for salvation, John Calvin (1509-1564) was also a heretic. Calvin taught infant baptism, and also that the Sacraments were EQUAL with the Word of God. Calvin and Luther BOTH taught baptismal regeneration, i.e., sacramental salvation.