Are You a Materialist?

[George-ananda]

Yes.

Examples would be gravity, magnetism, spacetime (Higgs field), and such. Even quarks aren't really matter. The electron, which is a quark, has a zero volume. There's also this strange particle that is massive in size, massive in mass, but doesn't interact with other matter (if I understand it right). Can't remember what they're called. Wimpzilla matter or particles, I think it was. So what is matter, really? They're the result of some underlying principle, interaction of information, energy, from which matter emerges, and from which mind emerges, from which interaction again, recursively through observation, makes matter behave according to mind. It's all a loop of interactions. What came first? Mind or matter? Matter or mind? There never was one without the other, in my opinion.

The definition was intended to mean all the things you discussed above. How could a materialist not believe in gravity and electrons, etc, and their affect on the physical plane? Materialism would make no sense if these things aren't part and parcel of the physical world. What we are trying to get at are questions like can consciousness exist without a physical brain?, can their be beings that are not part of our familiar physical plane?, can souls live on in planes other than our familiar one etc..

 

[Ouroboros]

The definition was intended to mean all the things you discussed above. How could a materialist not believe in gravity and electrons, etc, and their affect on the physical plane? Materialism would make no sense if these things aren't part and parcel of the physical world. What we are trying to get at are questions like can consciousness exist without a physical brain?, can their be beings that are not part of our familiar physical plane?, can souls live on in planes other than our familiar one etc..

Ok.

My short answer is then: I don't know, because I don't know exactly what physical is or what consciousness is. Both are mysterious.

 

[George-ananda]

By mind, are you merely referring to consciousness, or are you also including the other mental aggregates of feeling, perception, and volitional formations?

The Buddha teaches dependent origination. Conditioned by ignorance; volitional formations arise. Conditioned by volitional formations; consciousness arises. Conditioned by consciousness; name and form arise. Conditioned by name and form; the sense bases arise. Conditioned by the sense bases; contact arises. Conditioned by contact; feeling arises. Conditioned by feeling; craving arises. Conditioned by craving; clinging arises. Conditioned by clinging; becoming arises. Conditioned by becoming; birth arises. Conditioned by birth; sickness, old age, and death arises. As a Buddhist, this is my concern and my answer.

A present mental state can condition a future arising of matter. (This speaks to how accumulated kamma shapes a future rebirth and also can refer to something as mundane as moving my arm because of intention.) Matter also conditions mind. (A human thinks different types of thoughts than an ant does because the mental "hardware" is radically different. Also, on a mundane level, material objects such as the weather or music alters mental states.)

But do you think all these things that condition other things are ultimately the movement of physical world matter and energy? What else is there? As I said in the previous post "What we are trying to get at are questions like can consciousness exist without a physical brain?, can their be beings that are not part of our familiar physical plane?, can souls live on in planes other than our familiar one etc.."

 

[George-ananda]

Ok.

My short answer is then: I don't know, because I don't know exactly what physical is or what consciousness is. Both are mysterious.

OK, then I would call that 'Undecided' on the OP question. Would you agree? As far as reincarnation or heaven planes (as they are typically thought of by the masses) you would say, 'I don't know'. Is that correct?

 

[Ouroboros]

OK, then I would call that 'Undecided' on the OP question. Would you agree? As far as reincarnation or heaven planes (as they are typically thought of by the masses) you would say, 'I don't know'. Is that correct?

Yup.

 

[George-ananda]

In the context of the OP, it's not clear to me how you would categorize "ideas". Are they material or not?

They can be material if you believe they are ultimately things stored in the physical brain.

 

[JFish123]

If anyone believes in materialism then they must also believe we have no free will as the two go hand in hAnd

 

[Bunyip]

Here is the working definition of Materialism for this thread (per Wikipedia):

Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are the result of material interactions.

If you are a materialist, you can not believe in anything metaphysical like God, afterlives, spirits, souls, etc.

Why not George? The definition you cited does not say anything like that? Maybe Gods, afterlives etc are also the result of material reactions. You are making an assertion that the definition you posted does not support.

I want to keep this question as basic as possible because questions often get misunderstood here if they say too much.

I will argue that there are only three possible answers: 'Yes', 'No' and 'Undecided' and that everyone must have one and only one answer. If some tries to waffle a fourth answer I will argue until my Koala Bear avatar turns blue in the face that this is not possible.

I'll go first; I am a 'No' on the question as I believe consciousness is primary and that souls and non-physical spiritual planes exist that are not composed of physical plane material.

 

[psychoslice]

We need to have a balance between the two, after all we are here in this marital world to enjoy it, what a wast if we don't.

 

[von bek]

But do you think all these things that condition other things are ultimately the movement of physical world matter and energy? What else is there? As I said in the previous post "What we are trying to get at are questions like can consciousness exist without a physical brain?, can their be beings that are not part of our familiar physical plane?, can souls live on in planes other than our familiar one etc.."

I reject the notion of a soul that exists independently of mind and matter. The issue seems to be that you are saying the rejection of a soul is equivalent to materialism. It is not. Neither mind nor matter has an ultimate beginning.

...can consciousness exist without a physical brain?

My answer is, consciousness cannot arise without sense objects to be conscious of. Consciousness is void of self and anything belonging to a self, it is dependently originated.

can their be beings that are not part of our familiar physical plane?

Yes, I believe there are. The Buddha teaches there are other realms of experience. He speaks of devas and brahmas.

can souls live on in planes other than our familiar one etc.."

I reject the concept of a soul. I do believe in rebirth and do believe in heavenly and hellish realms.

 

[von bek]

Yes, I believe there are. The Buddha teaches there are other realms of experience. He speaks of devas and brahmas.

For the sake of clarity, I wish to point out that devas and brahmas are as empty of self as humans. Ultimately, there are only impersonal elements. Break every "being" down. No soul, no self, no being.

 

[Laika]

Yes, this is true. I see the problem people have with the question is some other uses of the word 'materialist' is generally unflattering but that is not the definition being used here.

If I remember correctly, it goes back to the Middle ages and is part of the idea of equating the physical realm and its pleasures with being base, corrupting and the sinful whilst "idealism" is celebrated because of its association with higher values connected with God. Materialism and Consumerism are often equated, as an obession with worldly goods and possessions.

 

[Willamena]

I reject the notion of a soul that exists independently of mind and matter. The issue seems to be that you are saying the rejection of a soul is equivalent to materialism. It is not. Neither mind nor matter has an ultimate beginning.


My answer is, consciousness cannot arise without sense objects to be conscious of. Consciousness is void of self and anything belonging to a self, it is dependently originated.


Yes, I believe there are. The Buddha teaches there are other realms of experience. He speaks of devas and brahmas.


I reject the concept of a soul. I do believe in rebirth and do believe in heavenly and hellish realms.

^This.

 

[Gambit]

We need to have a balance between the two, after all we are here in this marital world to enjoy it, what a wast if we don't.

I will explained this to you one more time. Hopefully, this time you will get it. Spiritualism does not necessarily deny the reality of the material. But materialism necessarily denies the reality of the spiritual.

 

[George-ananda]

I will explained this to you one more time. Hopefully, this time you will get it. Spiritualism does not necessarily deny the reality of the material. But materialism necessarily denies the reality of the spiritual.

<sigh>...a lot of people just don't understand what the definition was trying to say...i'm burned out on this subject

 

[Willamena]

I will explained this to you one more time. Hopefully, this time you will get it. Spiritualism does not necessarily deny the reality of the material. But materialism necessarily denies the reality of the spiritual.

Idealism does not necessarily deny the existence of the material. It just assigns it a proper place.

 

[psychoslice]

I will explained this to you one more time. Hopefully, this time you will get it. Spiritualism does not necessarily deny the reality of the material. But materialism necessarily denies the reality of the spiritual.

I think you are making a big deal out of nothing, so what if you believe in this or that, you are who you are and can be nothing more than that, so please stop trying to be someone who thinks they know it all, because you don't !.

 

[Glaurung]

No.

 

[psychoslice]

No.

YES.

 

[Ouroboros]

<sigh>...a lot of people just don't understand what the definition was trying to say...i'm burned out on this subject

Noooooo! Don't burn out. Be strong like a koala, brother.

Or is it "be cute as a koala"? Not sure...