Are you an atheist? if so, What is your POV about God?

[Unveiled Artist]

@Sonofason I edited my post with a spoiler

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How can you believe that Jesus and God are one if you do not believe what Jesus has said?

Jesus is a human being just like you and I. I believe god is life so everyone and our environment makes up what god is. We are all one with god. Jesus included.

I was also just referring to what the Bible says. If you're asking if I believe the Bible rather than what I mentioned above, no I don't. I was just saying what the Bible says so you understand it from a biblical perspective since its hard to understand it from mine.

If I can use the bible so you can understand what I am saying, I rather use that than repeat what I say. At least you know where I'm coming from even though you disagree. My goal is understanding and to make me think not to say you're wrong (my words not yours).

 

[Sonofason]

You refuted it yourself by claim evidence is subject to individuals opinions thus what you think is evidence is subject to my opinion as well. Your evidence isn't evidence as your own point is not established. You use no objective standard at all so you can not even support your experience is anything you claim. That is a refutation. Try again son.

Your grandstanding is nothing special, just another attempt to make an argument that you are incapable of making as you are incoherent and refute your own points as a result.

I do not believe you are correct. All evidence is subject to each individual's opinions and former bias which is all a product of past experience and learning (which are actually about the same thing...learning is a reflection of our perceptions of our experiences). If I see a piece of evidence, whether it be something that I claim is evidence, or something that someone else claims is evidence, my opinions and bias affect how I regard the evidence that is in question. You can say that a defendant's fingerprints being on the weapon that killed such and such a person is evidence that the defendant committed a murder, but that evidence is worthless if I have evidence to prove that the defendant was somewhere else on the planet at the time of the murder. Perspective and experience, ie more knowledge affects the value that we personally attach to the evidence that is in question. Your personal feelings about evidence that I put forth is meaningless to me unless your objection is meaningful to me. If it were something that was before the courts, then our opinions might matter more, because we are trying to persuade a jury that our evidence is more valuable than the evidence put forth by our opponent.

I have no need to save your soul. My evidence is sufficient for me. No evidence is there that you could submit that could possibly detract from the value of the evidence I hold. There is no evidence in existence that could sway my regard for the evidence I have.

 

[Sonofason]

Jesus is a human being just like you and I. I believe god is life so everyone and our environment makes up what god is. We are all one with god. Jesus included.

I was also just referring to what the Bible says. If you're asking if I believe the Bible rather than what I mentioned above, no I don't. I was just saying what the Bible says so you understand it from a biblical perspective since its hard to understand it from mine.

If I can use the bible so you can understand what I am saying, I rather use that than repeat what I say. At least you know where I'm coming from even though you disagree. My goal is understanding and to make me think not to say you're wrong (my words not yours).

I would suggest that if you desire to use the Bible as a crutch or tool to convey a message, that you use it within the context in which it was written. Otherwise people will think you don't know what you are talking about, which is what I have done.

I am perfectly capable of seeing your point of view without you corrupting the Bible. The simple fact is I think you are wrong. I think the Bible is right. That is the path I have chosen for myself.

 

[Sonofason]

Jesus is a human being just like you and I. I believe god is life so everyone and our environment makes up what god is. We are all one with god. Jesus included.

I was also just referring to what the Bible says. If you're asking if I believe the Bible rather than what I mentioned above, no I don't. I was just saying what the Bible says so you understand it from a biblical perspective since its hard to understand it from mine.

If I can use the bible so you can understand what I am saying, I rather use that than repeat what I say. At least you know where I'm coming from even though you disagree. My goal is understanding and to make me think not to say you're wrong (my words not yours).

No, it doesn't help.

 

[Shad]

I do not believe you are correct. All evidence is subject to each individual's opinions and former bias which is all a product of past experience and learning (which are actually about the same thing...learning is a reflection of our perceptions of our experiences). If I see a piece of evidence, whether it be something that I claim is evidence, or something that someone else claims is evidence, my opinions and bias affect how I regard the evidence that is in question.

Which is a subjective standard.

You can say that a defendant's fingerprints being on the weapon that killed such and such a person is evidence that the defendant committed a murder, but that evidence is worthless if I have evidence to prove that the defendant was somewhere else on the planet at the time of the murder.

That is objective evidence, see the difference?

Perspective and experience, ie more knowledge affects the value that we personally attach to the evidence that is in question. Your personal feelings about evidence that I put forth is meaningless to me unless your objection is meaningful to me.

Subjective opinion, nothing more. I am not obligated to follow your standard.

If it were something that was before the courts, then our opinions might matter more, because we are trying to persuade a jury that our evidence is more valuable than the evidence put forth by our opponent.

Which is an objective system. You are admitting that you have no standard outside your opinion as you do not use any standard but your own.

I have no need to save your soul. My evidence is sufficient for me.

Which is your opinion only.

No evidence is there that you could submit that could possibly detract from the value of the evidence I hold. There is no evidence in existence that could sway my regard for the evidence I have.

Yet you never state an opinion you try to state facts that can be scrutinized and found wanting. You could of easily avoid this whole discussion if you stated an opinion as an opinion, you didn't. More so you attempted to use other people's opinions to support your claimed fact by mentioning other people that have no standards but subjective ones as if it mattered. Now you make your view unfalsifiable making it irrelevant

 

[Sonofason]

Which is a subjective standard.



That is objective evidence, see the difference?



Subjective opinion, nothing more. I am not obligated to follow your standard.



Which is an objective system. You are admitting that you have no standard outside your opinion as you do not use any standard but your own.



Which is your opinion only.



Yet you never state an opinion you try to state facts that can be scrutinized and found wanting. You could of easily avoid this whole discussion if you stated an opinion as an opinion, you didn't. More so you attempted to use other people's opinions to support your claimed fact by mentioning other people that have no standards but subjective ones as if it mattered. Now you make your view unfalsifiable making it irrelevant

Which statement are you talking about?
Please cite the post that you are referencing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would suggest that if you desire to use the Bible as a crutch or tool to convey a message, that you use it within the context in which it was written. Otherwise people will think you don't know what you are talking about, which is what I have done.

I am perfectly capable of seeing your point of view without you corrupting the Bible. The simple fact is I think you are wrong. I think the Bible is right. That is the path I have chosen for myself.

That is the problem there. If I had a choice of denominations to follow, if not Catholic it would be Jehovah's Witness. I agree that they are Christian and they have a sound view on how I see Christ given he is not god.

Whether a mainstream trinitarian believes it or not is on that Christian. If I had my say on what the Bible said, I'd interpret god as life not an entity. I'd see Christ as human who is not perfect. However, it's not about me.

Another example is an when an ASL interpreter has enough experience in ASL she can teach a class the language. However, because she is hearing, she cannot teach the class the full context of Deaf culture which defines the language but that does not mean she does not know the culture. Nor does it mean she messed it up for students. It also doesn't mean she is misguiding students. It just means there are some things she cannot see through Deaf eyes and that does not prevent her from teaching a language that isn't native to her.

Same as the Bible. The Bible is not hard to understand. Once you personalize it, though, whoever challenges you with how you interpret the Bible all of the sudden you all get anzy. Yet, if you study it from an outsider's view, you'd see it's not that hard. It's a blunt book and jesus doesn't go around the bush with what he is saying. Believers make it complicated; and, it is not.

If anything, I'd focus on your relationship with Christ not your relationship with the Bible. You cannot understand (I will flip the script) the experience I have with my ancestors and the spirits. You can't fathom it.

However, I am not an alien to you. Your experience with the Holy Spirit (the neurons in your brain) fire in the same exact place where they fire in mine. We just interpret the results differently. We are both human.

Christians are not the center of the universe. If you guys want peace, understand the other person's perspective rather than separating yourselves from the very people you're trying to evangelize to.

 

[Sonofason]

That is the problem there. If I had a choice of denominations to follow, if not Catholic it would be Jehovah's Witness. I agree that they are Christian and they have a sound view on how I see Christ given he is not god.

Whether a mainstream trinitarian believes it or not is on that Christian. If I had my say on what the Bible said, I'd interpret god as life not an entity. I'd see Christ as human who is not perfect. However, it's not about me.

Another example is an when an ASL interpreter has enough experience in ASL she can teach a class the language. However, because she is hearing, she cannot teach the class the full context of Deaf culture which defines the language but that does not mean she does not know the culture. Nor does it mean she messed it up for students. It also doesn't mean she is misguiding students. It just means there are some things she cannot see through Deaf eyes and that does not prevent her from teaching a language that isn't native to her.

Same as the Bible. The Bible is not hard to understand. Once you personalize it, though, whoever challenges you with how you interpret the Bible all of the sudden you all get anzy. Yet, if you study it from an outsider's view, you'd see it's not that hard. It's a blunt book and jesus doesn't go around the bush with what he is saying. Believers make it complicated; and, it is not.

If anything, I'd focus on your relationship with Christ not your relationship with the Bible. You cannot understand (I will flip the script) the experience I have with my ancestors and the spirits. You can't fathom it.

However, I am not an alien to you. Your experience with the Holy Spirit (the neurons in your brain) fire in the same exact place where they fire in mine. We just interpret the results differently. We are both human.

Christians are not the center of the universe. If you guys want peace, understand the other person's perspective rather than separating yourselves from the very people you're trying to evangelize to.

I never suggested that the Bible is complicated.
My focus is on Christ, and it is in direct conformity to what is written in the Bible.

I cannot say exactly who it is that shall not been granted the Holy Spirit. But I can tell you that those who believe in Christ, that is those who love and obey Him do receive eternal life, and they do receive the Holy Spirit. What God does outside that context, I do not know. Nor do I care.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, it doesn't help.

Did you want to know more about what I believe?

I know a whole lot about Christianity, I have experienced it first hand, and I have read the Bible. I can talk to Christians and they think like you have "how can you say that if you believe Christ and god are one" and then I have to tell them or remind them, "hey, I'm not Christian".... you know people who are not Christians can understand and can experience the exact same thing you do as a Christian.

I don't know if it's an ego thing or what but not many religions have that political stance of "we know it but you can't fathom what we know." Nichiren Shoshu to some extent. But they too are political rather than religious.

Gosh, I think only a few people have genuinely asked me what I believe and really wanted to know and talk about it. You know what? One of those people were the Jehovah's Witness. So there is so much bias and stereotype about people who don't believe that it's ridiculous.

I would probably talk more about my beliefs but every time you challenge them as if they are a threat to biblical beliefs then everything goes off. Instead, respect the beliefs in and of themselves. You don't have to judge people who don't believe as you do. It's counterproductive to what jesus actually taught.

Also, all of what I say about the bible I can and have many times quoted from scripture. If I said I was christian, you'd probably have a different view. Since I said I was not, then your shields went up. What is up with that?

 

[Shad]

Which statement are you talking about?

Your experience of God is true, not an opinion, and that other people's experiences are also true, not an opinion, as support for your claim

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I never suggested that the Bible is complicated.
My focus is on Christ, and it is in direct conformity to what is written in the Bible.

When I say a statement, it doesn't mean you said something for me to make that statement. It's just my opinion. The Bible isn't complicated (my words not yours) so I don't understand why believers (in general) make it so complicated in context. In the Bible Jesus never says he is god. It's not a religious thing. It's not spiritual. It's plain logic and fact that if you read the letter B, I am not going to assume that it's the letter C by context when the content is very blunt that the context (A-CDEFG...) tells me what the letter is already. It's common sense (my words not yours).

I cannot say exactly who it is that shall not been granted the Holy Spirit. But I can tell you that those who believe in Christ, that is those who love and obey Him do receive eternal life, and they do receive the Holy Spirit. What God does outside that context, I do not know. Nor do I care.

Jesus cared a lot, though. That's what I learned in the Church that people should and do care. The JW who talked with me did care even though they disagreed with me. They actually asked me what I believed and talked to me about it. They went and researched it and we talked about each other's beliefs. I like that. I hope if there is peace in the world it goes beyond tolerance.

 

[Segev Moran]

I said religious concept as in one that falls under the philosophy of religion.



See above.



See above



Only when you ignore what I post and replace it with religion when I said religious concept.

What is a religious concept?

 

[Shad]

What is a religious concept?

A concept developed from methods used by religions as per philosophy of religion to build a worldview. Deism is just unorthodox in it's methods

 

[Willamena]

Too bad it was never just an experience without a conclusion put forward.

I believe it was experience that was under discussion in post #521. The interpretation as "of God" was incidental. The denial of the interpretation drew an interesting discussion off-topic.

 

[Shad]

I believe it was experience that was under discussion in post #521. The interpretation as "of God" was incidental. The denial of the interpretation drew an interesting discussion off-topic.

It was not incidental at all as it is one of primary basis from which the person draws support in their belief in God. If you look a few comments back you can see how important this conclusion is when it becomes unfalsifiable. Their interpretation can not be wrong while it must be true as well. There is no room for any other possibility.

 

[Sonofason]

Did you want to know more about what I believe?

I know a whole lot about Christianity, I have experienced it first hand, and I have read the Bible. I can talk to Christians and they think like you have "how can you say that if you believe Christ and god are one" and then I have to tell them or remind them, "hey, I'm not Christian".... you know people who are not Christians can understand and can experience the exact same thing you do as a Christian.

I don't know if it's an ego thing or what but not many religions have that political stance of "we know it but you can't fathom what we know." Nichiren Shoshu to some extent. But they too are political rather than religious.

Gosh, I think only a few people have genuinely asked me what I believe and really wanted to know and talk about it. You know what? One of those people were the Jehovah's Witness. So there is so much bias and stereotype about people who don't believe that it's ridiculous.

I would probably talk more about my beliefs but every time you challenge them as if they are a threat to biblical beliefs then everything goes off. Instead, respect the beliefs in and of themselves. You don't have to judge people who don't believe as you do. It's counterproductive to what jesus actually taught.

Also, all of what I say about the bible I can and have many times quoted from scripture. If I said I was christian, you'd probably have a different view. Since I said I was not, then your shields went up. What is up with that?

I'm not trying to shut you down. I am suggesting that interjecting Biblical figures into your religious views are not helpful to me understanding your position. Well, they haven't been so far. It has caused me some confusion. Knowing that you do not believe the Bible makes your position much more clear to me. I had thought that you were implying that your beliefs were supported by the Bible. I recognized that they are not supported by the Bible. Some of what you say is, but not all. But I am clear on this now. That in no way implies that I'm trying to shut you down. I have heard some of what you believe. Some I agree with. Some I do not. Honestly, if you accept that I believe what I believe is true. I will also accept that what you say you believe is true you believe is true. While I really don't see this as a negotiation, I am more than happy to see what your thoughts are, and why you believe what you believe. Surely understanding why others believe what they believe can help us understand why we ourselves believe what we believe. I didn't mean to sound as though I was putting you off.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you. My whole living and working environment where I rest to my county/town are Christian (and set in Christian values). It was the first time I've ever had all stores close on Christmas. Usually some Grocery Stories stay open. Wendys' and McDonalds. Only 7'11 and gas stations were open.

So, when I'm talking with friends et cetera and they don't understand me, and in my opinion we all share the same experiences just different sources, explaining them from a biblical perspective kind of lessons the tension. I can talk about Buddhist morals to an extent but mentioning Spirits and Ancestors is like I'm mentioning the devil in Jesus' name. So it bothers me.

Unless someone asks me a direct question about what I believe, it's pretty much covered up. Here, I hear a lot of god-bless-yous and most people already associate me as a Christian by default without even mentioning religion.

I'm not trying to shut you down. I am suggesting that interjecting Biblical figures into your religious views are not helpful to me understanding your position. Well, they haven't been so far. It has caused me some confusion. Knowing that you do not believe the Bible makes your position much more clear to me. I had thought that you were implying that your beliefs were supported by the Bible. I recognized that they are not supported by the Bible. Some of what you say is, but not all. But I am clear on this now. That in no way implies that I'm trying to shut you down. I have heard some of what you believe. Some I agree with. Some I do not. Honestly, if you accept that I believe what I believe is true. I will also accept that what you say you believe is true you believe is true. While I really don't see this as a negotiation, I am more than happy to see what your thoughts are, and why you believe what you believe. Surely understanding why others believe what they believe can help us understand why we ourselves believe what we believe. I didn't mean to sound as though I was putting you off.

I honestly forgot my point before I mentioned the Bible. The closest is that our religious experiences are not different in that we are all human. When I hear the word god, I only know god (the general word rather than biblical, Hindu, or Pagan), as life. That's how I translate it. Experiencing god is living life. Other than that, my faith is a string of practices rather than a religious system with its set morals and written text. So the best way to understand what I believe is really ask specific questions.

Given where I live and who I am around, if I am not asked directly what I believe, it will always have a Christian slant not only because of where I live but also being part of the Church, it's something I can't divorce myself from.

 

[Willamena]

It was not incidental at all as it is one of primary basis from which the person draws support in their belief in God. If you look a few comments back you can see how important this conclusion is when it becomes unfalsifiable. Their interpretation can not be wrong while it must be true as well. There is no room for any other possibility.

While I would disagree that the interpretation of an experience as "of god" is a basis for belief in god (that sequence being reversed), I have to ask, which post was it that you're referring to?

 

[Shad]

While I would disagree that the interpretation of an experience as "of god" is a basis for belief in god (that sequence being reversed), I have to ask, which post was it that you're referring to?

Sonofason's posts from days ago. You can find it by following the chain of replies.