Are you with UN "global" law prohibition the provocation "mock/insult/lie", about all religions ?

[Photonic]

That is what it looks like based on your posts in this thread.
You said that the teaching of hell is child abuse and then said that teaching it to ones children is ok...


move the goal posts much?

It was a mistake of mine to make such a sweeping statement. Especially when there are so many grey areas. However, it should not = me supporting child abuse.

I am making an outrageous statement to counter another outrageous statement.

 

[McBell]

It was a mistake of mine to make such a sweeping statement. Especially when there are so many grey areas. However, it should not = me supporting child abuse.

Seems to me that you appeared to be calling the teaching of hell child abuse in one post, then in another post you said that it was fine to teach it.

Which makes it appear that you are just fine with child abuse.

perhaps it would help if you were to further clarify what you meant instead of getting caught up in the emotional response fest?

I'm am making an outrageous statement to counter another outrageous statement.

fair enough.

 

[Storm]

Look, I see what you are saying, and it makes perfect sense. I agree with the statement (should you mean "illegal" of course). I understand you are saying that if the above is true, and if I should agree with that, and I agree that teaching hell in any form is child abuse, then it should apply logically.

However, I have clearly stated that I consider it on an individual basis given the maturity of the child, their essential ability to actually understand that what they are hearing has the possibility of being false, or not applying to them. Not to mention there are certain ways to teach it that are obviously outright child abuse, but I'll exclude those for the context of this statement.

OK, progress. This is an acceptable argument, but it does not equate to or even justify the blanket statement "teaching kids about hell is child abuse." (Not a direct quote.)

I'm not going to call you a liar, but I will ask for a link to the post where you"clearly stated that [you] consider it on an individual basis," cause that's a totally different statement than the one you've been arguing over and over.

If you'd opened with "some people use religion to abuse children," this whole fight never would have happened, because I know all too well. That isn't what you said, though. You chose a specific doctrine and labelled it abusive. And, yeah. That offended me on many levels.

 

[Storm]

I am making an outrageous statement to counter another outrageous statement.

See above post, we're making progress. Let's not negate it by continuing the mud slinging.

 

[Photonic]

Seems to me that you appeared to be calling the teaching of hell child abuse in one post, then in another post you said that it was fine to teach it.

Which makes it appear that you are just fine with child abuse.

perhaps it would help if you were to further clarify what you meant instead of getting caught up in the emotional response fest?


fair enough.

I've tried to make it a little more clear that I do not think hell as an idea is inherently child abuse. Obviously I deserve a bit of ridicule at least for suggesting it. But some methods of bring it up are clearly nothing but detrimental to the child, but the parents either don't know better, or they want it that way.

I'll give you an example of exactly what it is that I find abhorrent. Stuff like this:

Hell house - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which is fine for adults (whatever floats their boat), but there are parents that use this to give their child an idea of hell.

 

[Reverend Rick]

yes brother ,you know how much i respect you , and by my experience most of the western people here are deserve to respect .

it's just we had different opinions , and it's not important for me .

i just want to show my "opinion" that i felt hurt, when someone lie/mock/insult my Prophets .

I agree it is a terrible thing to do. I have no respect for people who lie about your Prophet. The thing is my friend, do we want to give anyone the power to control what we say? Sure, if they where a fair and just athority, it might work, but I cannot trust anyone to have that control over me.

Freedom is not free. Letting people say terrible things is the price we pay for our freedom to say what we like too. While I admit this is not a perfect system, freedom is too important to restrict. Once we allow restrictions, we are no longer free.

 

[crossfire]

I agree it is a terrible thing to do. I have no respect for people who lie about your Prophet. The thing is my friend, do we want to give anyone the power to control what we say? Sure, if they where a fair and just athority, it might work, but I cannot trust anyone to have that control over me.

Freedom is not free. Letting people say terrible things is the price we pay for our freedom to say what we like too. While I admit this is not a perfect system, freedom is too important to restrict. Once we allow restrictions, we are no longer free.

Are people who go into a frenzy over mere words really free?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Are people who go into a frenzy over mere words really free?

They are allowing people to control them, thats for sure. "mere words" is a little understated. People can be provoked, you are not immune or you would be perfect.

I think the better question is why they are so easily provoked?

 

[crossfire]

They are allowing people to control them, thats for sure. "mere words" is a little understated. People can be provoked, you are not immune or you would be perfect.

I think the better question is why they are so easily provoked?

They feel powerless, and want power, perhaps? (Back to the freedom thing)

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I think the better question is why they are so easily provoked?

In my opinion, it is probably because Islam is so completely infused into their culture. Some of those countries are near-100% Muslim. That means that an attack on Islam looks to them like an attack on reality itself.

So I think the only answer is to somehow work toward religious freedom in Muslim countries, along with helping them to grow their economies. The problem isn't with Islam, in my view. Any Holy Scripture can be reinterpreted to fit modern sensibilities. The problem is with repressive cultures.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In my opinion, it is probably because Islam is so completely infused into their culture. Some of those countries are near-100% Muslim. That means that an attack on Islam looks to them like an attack on reality itself.

So I think the only answer is to somehow work toward religious freedom in Muslim countries, along with helping them to grow their economies. The problem isn't with Islam, in my view. Any Holy Scripture can be reinterpreted to fit modern sensibilities. The problem is with repressive cultures.

This is my view also. Islam is absolutely ingrained in their culture and day-to-day lives, and a lot of people in those countries have very little exposure to other beliefs and practices that are outside of Islam. The real key to lasting tolerance can only really lie in education.

I think the door swings both ways, of course. I'm not sure what the situation is in the 'states, but here in the UK we at least receive a rudimentary education on various religions and religious cultures. It hardly curbs the most ignorant and bigoted of people, but it certainly helps at least develop a basic level of empathy and relieve some of the "otherness" that causes religious and cultural tensions such as these.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

This is my view also. Islam is absolutely ingrained in their culture and day-to-day lives, and a lot of people in those countries have very little exposure to other beliefs and practices that are outside of Islam. The real key to lasting tolerance can only really lie in education.

Yeah. I'm hoping that more and more Muslims will come to western forums like these. But I worry that the initial shock of it will frighten them away, so I urge everyone to be as gentle and courteous with them as possible. It could actually save lives and prevent a lot of grief if we can help open minds. These are opinion leaders. If they enlarge their view of things, that may ripple out through their cultures.

Plus, we can learn a lot from them at the same time. I have learned just recently that many middle-eastern Muslims don't seem to understand free speech as it exists in the west. Since the concept of free speech is so foreign to them, that helps me understand how things must be in their own societies.

I think the door swings both ways, of course. I'm not sure what the situation is in the 'states, but here in the UK we at least receive a rudimentary education on various religions and religious cultures. It hardly curbs the most ignorant and bigoted of people, but it certainly helps at least develop a basic level of empathy and relieve some of the "otherness" that causes religious and cultural tensions such as these.

Americans are all over the board educationally, of course, but I think there is definitely a trend toward less-rigid religious (Christian) thought. I've seen tolerance increase in my own lifetime.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yeah. I'm hoping that more and more Muslims will come to western forums like these. But I worry that the initial shock of it will frighten them away, so I urge everyone to be as gentle and courteous with them as possible. It could actually save lives and prevent a lot of grief if we can help open minds. These are opinion leaders. If they enlarge their view of things, that may ripple out through their cultures.

I think there are far more moderate and tolerant Muslims in the world than we might think at first. I think I get your point, though, that building bridges across cultures through conversations like this is critical at this point in human history.

Plus, we can learn a lot from them at the same time. I have learned just recently that many middle-eastern Muslims don't seem to understand free speech as it exists in the west. Since the concept of free speech is so foreign to them, that helps me understand how things must be in their own societies.

I'm not sure. I think many do understand free speech as countries with Euro and American culture practice it, but are currently having to operate their daily lives under regimes that practice apostasy laws, so are limited to how they can conduct their lives and what they say in public for their own safety.

Look at it this way - many polls clearly indicate that a majority of Americans accept homosexuals at work, as neighbors, as colleagues, and even support same sex marriage. And yet so few states mandate same sex marriage and the federal government JUST overturned DADT and have yet to overturn DOMA.

On the outside, it sure looks like America is clearly radically homophobic, but the ground truth tells a different story. It isn't as black and white as it may seem at first glance.

Americans are all over the board educationally, of course, but I think there is definitely a trend toward less-rigid religious (Christian) thought. I've seen tolerance increase in my own lifetime.

Me too. I remember proselytizing teachers in my classrooms where none of the Jesus lectures in math class were ever given a second glance. I remember prayer in school. Christianity was simply the obvious default, and when someone would ask you which religion you were, they assumed it was a matter of which Christian denomination you were. I've seen the default status being dissolved bit by bit year after year, with more citizens being more informed of other religions besides their own and realizing that there is more common ground across culture, belief, and even non-belief that we were probably raised to think.

 

[Godobeyer]

I agree it is a terrible thing to do. I have no respect for people who lie about your Prophet. The thing is my friend, do we want to give anyone the power to control what we say? Sure, if they where a fair and just athority, it might work, but I cannot trust anyone to have that control over me.

Freedom is not free. Letting people say terrible things is the price we pay for our freedom to say what we like too. While I admit this is not a perfect system, freedom is too important to restrict. Once we allow restrictions, we are no longer free.

I agree with you 100% .
i like your explain about tolerance in other reply .

for me i hate to lie , or justify to lie , i hate to tell you that this thread in other way , it's just simple static about lie and insult . (agree to lie/mock/insult or not )

if someone told me that his religion or his way of life ,is justify to lie , how could i trust him/them ?

all we know that this kind of LAW ,will not pass , even if it's pass , it's will be limite and not effective .

for me ,it's not about UN law , it's about way of living and religions teaching .

 

[Godobeyer]

caladan

First, I love it how you change the subject. If Muslims wish to push for blasphemy laws, then they should show the courtesy and respect some basic values that are held in developed nations. If Islam condemns or persecutes homosexuals, why should developed nations protect criticism of such issues in Islam?

But to ease your pain, I'll elaborate on Israel. Homosexuality is not only legal in Israel, but same sex couples enjoy virtually all the rights that heterosexual couples enjoy. Gay pride parades are held in Israeli cities, and an active night life for the LGBT community is available too. In other words, all the things which are absent in the Muslim world when it comes to homosexuals are found in Israel.
In Judaism, the largest world conservative organization has accepted same sex marriage very recently.
You can read more here: LGBT rights in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

most Muslims countries are religious , which mean their laws correspond religious laws .

that's ok homosex is legal , but how about judiasm ? it's allowed the homosex ?!!! of course not .

And do you really expect Egyptian, Suadi, Iranian, Palestinian TV stations and media to follow and prohibit the demonization of Jews? if Muslims can't show the same courtesy towards other groups, than they are not in a place to demand protection of their dogmas from satire or criticism.

the TV arabs media represent the daily crimes of the israeli army against palestins , it's not about mock or insult or lie.
even if there is insult , it's insult the israeli soldiers whom killed innocents palestinians or lebaness by guns or plans ...etc .

or insult the abuse and racism of the israel goverment , which distinction in the rights between their residence (arabs/jews/christians)

the irani TV insult the goverement of israel because it's racist and it's menance to attack Iran all the time.

when i told you israeli goverment is racist , it's not mean forcely that all the jewish people are .
i post a video before , of a jewish condemne the crimes of the israeli army againt the innocents palestines .
i have in profil picture of jews oragnisation against the racism in Israel , and against the crimes "by the name of the jews " against the innocents palestins and leboness .

-the israeli goverment built homes to the jews and destruct forcely the houses of arabs,there is no equal in the human rights between the residences in Israel .
for me , allow to homosex, is fake freedom, it's just fake justification/representation to the west that Israel is freedom .

 

[Storm]

caladan


most Muslims countries are religious , which mean their laws correspond religious laws .

that's ok homosex is legal , but how about judiasm ? it's allowed the homosex ?!!! of course not .

the TV arabs media represent the daily crimes of the israeli army against palestins , it's not about mock or insult or lie.
even if there is insult , it's insult the israeli soldiers whom killed innocents palestinians or lebaness by guns or plans ...etc .

or insult the abuse and racism of the israel goverment , which distinction in the rights between their residence (arabs/jews/christians)

the irani TV insult the goverement of israel because it's racist and it's menance to attack Iran all the time.

when i told you israeli goverment is racist , it's not mean forcely that all the jewish people are .
i post a video before , of a jewish condemne the crimes of the israeli army againt the innocents palestines .
i have in profil picture of jews oragnisation against the racism in Israel , and against the crimes "by the name of the jews " against the innocents palestins and leboness .

-the israeli goverment built homes to the jews and destruct forcely the houses of arabs,there is no equal in the human rights between the residences in Israel .
for me , allow to homosex, is fake freedom, it's just fake justification/representation to the west that Israel is freedom .

The thing is, supporting this legislation is an attempt to force your moral sensibilties on us.

If it's not right for Western countries to force you to abandon your moral stance on homosexuality, why is it ok for Islamic (or any other faith) nations to force us to abandon the moral principle of freedom of conscience? (Speech being a mere expression of a free conscience.)

 

[Godobeyer]

A parenthetical aside: You do a fine job advocating for a position I oppose.
One's true colors shine when disagreeing, while remaining civil & thoughtful.

I am really really appreciate this , it's my honor .

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I think there are far more moderate and tolerant Muslims in the world than we might think at first.

I'm sure there are plenty of them. As you say, it's hard to be truthful about one's worldview when the government behaves a bit like the Spanish Inquisition.

I think I get your point, though, that building bridges across cultures through conversations like this is critical at this point in human history.

Yeah. I look forward to the day when governments are incapable of shutting down the internet or any part of it.

I remember prayer in school. Christianity was simply the obvious default, and when someone would ask you which religion you were, they assumed it was a matter of which Christian denomination you were.

Yep. And you certainly could not answer 'atheist.' Even today I think that would be hard to do, judging from the outraged reaction from Christian students when an atheist student tries to stop the public praying.

Things are changing, but we have a long way to go yet.

 

[Godobeyer]

Well, sweetie, review the last few pages. I think it's clear that I find Photonic's view disgusting, dishonest, and immoral... but I still think he has every right to say it.

There's also the matter of tactics: it's more effective to expose such views for what they are than force them into hiding where they thrive uncontested.

So says this deeply religious advocate of free speech.

he is my friend , i will not angry for him if he get angry about my opinion .
i am not shocked about the result of the poll , i expect that in the two last poll options many atheist against the law , and ZERO atheist with the law , but what i did not expect is the religious people whom vote with provocation !!!!!

 

[otokage007]

I'm an atheist and I would vote a law to restrict freedom. I suppose this sums it:

-Your freedom of speech ends when I'm tired of hearing crap.

Edit: I voted wrong btw