Are you with UN "global" law prohibition the provocation "mock/insult/lie", about all religions ?

[gnostic]

Since there are no room for agnostics to vote in the poll, I've decided to view the atheism as being "non-religious" and vote in that group.

Buddhists also would fit in either category because they are essentially atheists but at the same time they are religious.

 

[apophenia]

It's not impossible to have been taught about Islam from untrustworthy sources that post themselves as factual. Unfortunately it's quite easy to find biased sources on Islam (either vehemently pro or anti). If you have chance, perhaps looking out for one of Karen Armstrong's books would be useful; "Islam: A Short History" and "Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time". These are two of her books that focus more specifically on Islam. I've read other books of hers, so I could recommend her as an enjoyable author to read.

If you remember the word in question, please do share.


Indeed there is, unfortunately. There can often be a huge difference in what is commonly accepted as part of the culture or the culture of the religion, and what the religion actually teaches.

I have mentioned this elsewhere, but I'll remind you - I did take teaching for some time from a sufi sheikh of the Mevlevi order ( at that time I considered I was studying Islam, much of the material was from the Koran, I now realise that many muslims consider sufis heretical). I had to make a choice between studying with a Tibetan ( Kagyu) lama, or with the Mevlevi, and it was a hard choice to make.

So I am not coming from a position of entrenched bias.

In fact, it required over a decade of observing constant shocking and intolerant behaviour and attitudes from the muslim community ( and not an insignificant minority by any means, and including treatment of one another )to cause me to see Islam as a religion with inbuilt problems which can only result in serious conflict. Islam (and certainly the culture it is embedded in), I realised, is fundamentally incompatible with everything non-Islam, in a way which is totally opposite to, say, hinduism or buddhism. Within the muslim culture are the seeds of belligerence, intolerance and violence, irregardless of the unquestionable goodness of many muslims, or whatever may be written in the Koran.

This was a hard realisation for me to accept, but that is what I now see clearly.

edit : to clarify further, I also see the seeds of belligerence, violence and intolerance inbuilt in American foreign policy ( and widespread attitudes in the American community, particularly, but not limited to, the religious right-wing ), and can understand why so many muslims see America as The Great Satan. It's not like one of them is the high moral ground ...

 

[Godobeyer]

Since there are no room for agnostics to vote in the poll, I've decided to view the atheism as being "non-religious" and vote in that group.

Buddhists also would fit in either category because they are essentially atheists but at the same time they are religious.

anyway brother as i said before , i am sorry i don't have much info about religions , but as i see that agnositic are "non-religion " , just vote with non-religion (atheist)

 

[beenie]

anyway brother as i said before , i am sorry i don't have much info about religions , but as i see that agnositic are "non-religion " , just vote with non-religion (atheist)

Agnostics are not "non-religion", though. They are unsure, but are different than atheists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Agnostics are not "non-religion", though. They are unsure, but are different than atheists.

And just to muddy the waters more, there are religious atheists.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Agnostics are not "non-religion", though. They are unsure, but are different than atheists.

And just to muddy the waters more, there are religious atheists.

I'd also like to add that there are atheists who practice magic and consider themselves occultists in addition to being religious.

 

[Kerr]

And just to muddy the waters more, there are religious atheists.

And if I understand correctly, there are also agnostic atheists and agnostic theists.

 

[Rakhel]

Agnostics are not "non-religion", though. They are unsure, but are different than atheists.

And just to muddy the waters more, there are religious atheists.

I'd also like to add that there are atheists who practice magic and consider themselves occultists in addition to being religious.

And if I understand correctly, there are also agnostic atheists and agnostic theists.

you guys just have to make it difficult, don't you?

 

[Straw Dog]

So have we both been duped ? Hard to verify. If our impression is correct, it follows that it is not likely to be admitted. On the other hand, we may have heard carefully constructed propaganda. ( Or, more likely, a mixture of both.

I'm mostly basing what I said from what some Muslim friends have actually admitted. It's possible that I'm misunderstanding it, but only in so far that my friends have misunderstood. Whether a Muslim lies or not in their sales pitch is irrelevant as I'm unlikely to be convinced either way.

Addressing the OP again, we don't need more laws dictating our behavior, but a combination of cultivating genuine civility and more resistance to whatever is considered offensive. "Stick and stones..." you know? Why must every offense be rectified? Isn't it better to cultivate a state of mind resistant to any disturbance?

 

[Kerr]

you guys just have to make it difficult, don't you?

Of course .

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

And if I understand correctly, there are also agnostic atheists and agnostic theists.

I was once engaged to a non-religious agnostic atheist, but she started leaning a bit to the religious -- using the word 'God' too much -- so I called it off.

How can you raise kids in a home where parents aren't even true to their own label?

 

[gnostic]

anyway brother as i said before , i am sorry i don't have much info about religions , but as i see that agnositic are "non-religion " , just vote with non-religion (atheist)

Agnostics are not "non-religion", though. They are unsure, but are different than atheists.

(Some agnostics are, some are not...)

And just to muddy the waters more, there are religious atheists.

Like I've said. Buddhists are religious and atheists at the same time. Buddhists can't vote twice in the poll.

Agnostic theists are religious, but agnostic atheists are not.

you guys just have to make it difficult, don't you?

Goodness' YES! :yes:

Godobeyer see everything too black-and-white. Ssainhu is also Muslim, but at least her view are not so narrow.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Agnostic theists are religious, but agnostic atheists are not.

Personally, I don't think that being theistic necessarily implies being religious.

IMO, a religion is a community of shared belief. I would not consider a theist believing their own thing and practicing on their own to be "religious".

 

[apophenia]

I'm mostly basing what I said from what some Muslim friends have actually admitted. It's possible that I'm misunderstanding it, but only in so far that my friends have misunderstood. Whether a Muslim lies or not in their sales pitch is irrelevant as I'm unlikely to be convinced either way.

Addressing the OP again, we don't need more laws dictating our behavior, but a combination of cultivating genuine civility and more resistance to whatever is considered offensive. "Stick and stones..." you know? Why must every offense be rectified? Isn't it better to cultivate a state of mind resistant to any disturbance?

I'm with you on this. I referred to that nursery rhyme myself earlier (in this thread I think) as a piece of vital human wisdom which westerners learn in childhood.

In case any of our muslim friends don't know it it is -

"Sticks and stones may break my bones,
But names will never hurt me".

The intent of the rhyme is precisely to work against one of the worst of the 'nafs al amarra' - pride and self-cherishing.

' Nafs' are 'the commanding forces of ego', and the qualification ' amarra' refers to the nafs which incite evil actions.

In my opinion, one of the most unfortunate tendencies in muslim culture is to treat this particular affliction of pride as a virtue, and to call it 'honor'.

I once realised that whatever teaching is predominant in a particular culture, is so because that culture is particularly in need of it.

Islam means submission. And it seems clear to me that the arabic people are very prone to this idea of 'honor', which is actually rampant and belligerent ego posing as a virtue -one the worst of the nafs al amarra which people must deal with.

To even imagine that there should be general riots and indiscriminate murdering of westerners because of the words spoken, or cartoons drawn, by a few westerners is indicative of a serious psychological issue within the muslim community - the failure of the capacity to submit and accept, to show patience and tolerance with those who do not agree with their beliefs, or even deliberately provoke them. I would say to muslims, using their own terms - shaitan is using your concept of 'honor' to humiliate and destroy your religion from within your own culture.

And on the subject of 'lying in the cause of Islam' - yes, in debates I have followed on other forums, muslims have admitted that this is how many muslims behave and interpret certain Islamic teachings, it is not my misunderstanding ( though, from a strict scriptural perspective, it may be theirs).

 

[Kerr]

I was once engaged to a non-religious agnostic atheist, but she started leaning a bit to the religious -- using the word 'God' too much -- so I called it off.

How can you raise kids in a home where parents aren't even true to their own label?

People are different you know . Another non-religious agnostic atheist might not have done that.

And I am sure there is more to being a parent then having an perfectly fitting label.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

People are different you know . Another non-religious agnostic atheist might not have done that.

Good point. Maybe I should look her up and take another chance on love.

 

[Godobeyer]

Agnostics are not "non-religion", though. They are unsure, but are different than atheists.

than why agnostic is in the "non-religion " DIR ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Agnostics are not "non-religion", though. They are unsure, but are different than atheists.

then why "Agnostic" is in "non-religion" DIR

 

[Debater Slayer]

then why "Agnostic" is in "non-religion" DIR

Some agnostics are non-religious, but not all of them are. One can be agnostic and Buddhist, for example.

 

[Godobeyer]

Some agnostics are non-religious, but not all of them are. One can be agnostic and Buddhist, for example.

thanks brother for this clarification