Are you with UN "global" law prohibition the provocation "mock/insult/lie", about all religions ?

[Falvlun]

Religion is getting tamer because people are more informed. Preconceived notions tend to give way in the light of overwhelming contradictory information. At the very least this has made people more tolerant of beliefs that are not there own.

Which is why I think your predictions about the effects of religious teachings, and the equation of them to child abuse, don't really fit.

 

[darkendless]

I find it ironic how many people posting in this thread champion freedom and then turn around and display the same mentality of intolerance in the same breath.

Here in America we are free to speak our minds, free to worship or not worship as we see fit, raise our children differently and to bear arms.

The OP wants to eliminate our freedom of speech while others want to restrict religious teachings or others want to take away our guns.

Myself, I champion freedom and do not want to be restricted. People who want to tell parents how to raise their children are no different than Godobeyer wanting to control your speech.

Free speech is dangerous and is both good and bad. It lets idiots and fanatics continue to raise idiots and fanatics.

What if I raised my children to be complete racists and told them that everyone who isn't white is evil and deserved to be imprisoned? Its my right isn't it? They're my children and I can raise them as I see fit.

My qualm with raising children religiously is that they never have a chance to choose for themsevles. I think it's unhealthy to push a religion onto them from a young age. Children absorb information as truth. It could be challenging if their thruths get trumped.

But it's your right so whatever right?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Which is why I think your predictions about the effects of religious teachings, and the equation of them to child abuse, don't really fit.

Take the gloves off Falvlum, his opinion is full of crap. He has no proof or even a lame biased source to present, just his lame opinion and nothing more.

When I showed him that my children grew up fine, he dismissed my input totally, not to mention completely ignoring my suggestions of using his logic on the chronic under performers in society.

To say it simply, his hypocrisy knows no bounds. You either champion freedom or you don't. Why should his opinions on how to raise children trump any other methods? I don't see any examples of his accomplishments to back his claims or at the least any biased sources which would give him at least some level of credibility.

 

[Storm]

Free speech is dangerous and is both good and bad. It lets idiots and fanatics continue to raise idiots and fanatics.

What if I raised my children to be complete racists and told them that everyone who isn't white is evil and deserved to be imprisoned? Its my right isn't it? They're my children and I can raise them as I see fit.

My qualm with raising children religiously is that they never have a chance to choose for themsevles. I think it's unhealthy to push a religion onto them from a young age. Children absorb information as truth. It could be challenging if their thruths get trumped.

But it's your right so whatever right?

Would you say the same of political persuasion? Also, where do you draw the line?

Let's use your example of racism:
Should we remove children from the homes of known KKK members?
How about those who think most black people are criminals?
Small white females who get nervous when large black men approach them at a gas station?
My own uncle admits he joined the Tea Party because Obama was black, and insists the only reason any white people voted for him was "to prove to yourselves you're not racist." Is he an unfit parent? 'Cause his three kids are pretty well adjusted, even if they do forward me emails decrying the ACLU.

 

[Storm]

Take the gloves off Falvlum, his opinion is full of crap. He has no proof or even a lame biased source to present, just his lame opinion and nothing more.

When I showed him that my children grew up fine, he dismissed my input totally, not to mention completely ignoring my suggestions of using his logic on the chronic under performers in society.

To say it simply, his hypocrisy knows no bounds. You either champion freedom or you don't. Why should his opinions on how to raise children trump any other methods? I don't see any examples of his accomplishments to back his claims or at the least any biased sources which would give him at least some level of credibility.

Not to mention his implications that I'm lying about my own history and resulting mental health because I think he should back up his accusation.

 

[Falvlun]

My qualm with raising children religiously is that they never have a chance to choose for themsevles. I think it's unhealthy to push a religion onto them from a young age. Children absorb information as truth. It could be challenging if their thruths get trumped.

But it's your right so whatever right?

How do you explain people, like myself, who grew up in a particular religion, but later left it, or those who never bought into it in the first place? Sure, it can be difficult, but it is not impossible. I was certainly able to "choose for myself".

 

[Reverend Rick]

Free speech is dangerous and is both good and bad. It lets idiots and fanatics continue to raise idiots and fanatics.

What if I raised my children to be complete racists and told them that everyone who isn't white is evil and deserved to be imprisoned? Its my right isn't it? They're my children and I can raise them as I see fit.

My qualm with raising children religiously is that they never have a chance to choose for themsevles. I think it's unhealthy to push a religion onto them from a young age. Children absorb information as truth. It could be challenging if their thruths get trumped.

But it's your right so whatever right?

I have to ask, have you raised children who are adults now? When they become grown and on their own they make their own decisions and decide what they keep and what they throw away.

Children are not robots which we program, they have minds of their own as you will find out one day.

 

[darkendless]

Would you say the same of political persuasion? Also, where do you draw the line?

Let's use your example of racism:
Should we remove children from the homes of known KKK members?
How about those who think most black people are criminals?
Small white females who get nervous when large black men approach them at a gas station?
My own uncle admits he joined the Tea Party because Obama was black, and insists the only reason any white people voted for him was "to prove to yourselves you're not racist." Is he an unfit parent? 'Cause his three kids are pretty well adjusted, even if they do forward me emails decrying the ACLU.

I would, and as for drawing the line, I can't say. I'm just using extreme examples but it would be hard to say where a line is to be drawn. I'm saying I don't like it, it would be impossible to change.

Ideally all religion would be taught and the child would be able to choose for themsevles but its unpracticle. The same goes for tolerance (racism) and politics. Ideal situations are generally never going to happen though and children are affected by the bias of their parents. I know the football team I support is something my father pushed on me as a small child. I don't know any better. I am making an assumption in saying religion could be the same.

Using my example, how would it be possible to achieve these things effectively? In saying that I dislike religion/racism/politics being mandated in a household, I honestly don't know how to improve any of it.

 

[darkendless]

I have to ask, have you raised children who are adults now? When they become grown and on their own they make their own decisions and decide what they keep and what they throw away.

Children are not robots which we program, they have minds of their own as you will find out one day.

I have not. Its getting to the point of making the decision of what to throw away that bothers me. Seems like internal conflict would occur when they could be devoting their energy to other things instead of deciding whether mummy and daddys religion i right for them?

 

[Debater Slayer]

How do you explain people, like myself, who grew up in a particular religion, but later left it, or those who never bought into it in the first place? Sure, it can be difficult, but it is not impossible. I was certainly able to "choose for myself".

This.

 

[Storm]

I would,

You would include political persuasion? As in, declare it child abuse to teach political ideals? I want to be absolutely clear before I respond.

and as for drawing the line, I can't say. I'm just using extreme examples but it would be hard to say where a line is to be drawn. I'm saying I don't like it, it would be impossible to change.

Well, that's quite a problem isn't it? To me, it's pretty obvious that we have an obligation to remove children from abusive homes. If it doesn't justify removal, don't call it abuse.

Furthermore, I think the laws we have on the books are perfectly adequate (which is not to say the same of enforcement, sad to say). If a child is being traumatized physically or emotionally, we step in. If the child is happy, healthy, and well adjusted, leave them the hell alone. This neither provides nor requires any special consideration for religion.

Ideally all religion would be taught and the child would be able to choose for themsevles but its unpracticle. The same goes for tolerance (racism) and politics. Ideal situations are generally never going to happen though and children are affected by the bias of their parents. I know the football team I support is something my father pushed on me as a small child. I don't know any better. I am making an assumption in saying religion could be the same.

Of course a child is prone to follow the religion of their parents. That's irrelevant to the question of abuse, however.

Using my example, how would it be possible to achieve these things effectively? In saying that I dislike religion/racism/politics being mandated in a household, I honestly don't know how to improve any of it.

Nothing can be done, truth be told. Short of removing ALL children from their parents and having them raised by the state (which I think we can all agree is a much more frightening scenario), there is no way to keep parents from influencing their children. Personally, I don't understand wanting to.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I have not. Its getting to the point of making the decision of what to throw away that bothers me. Seems like internal conflict would occur when they could be devoting their energy to other things instead of deciding whether mummy and daddys religion i right for them?

I champion my adults childrens freedom. I never expected them to be my clones. I enjoy seeing them make their own decisions and take responsibility in their lives. They are happy adjusted young adults making their own decisions. I can't help but to be proud of them. They have a work ethic and an optimistic view for their future.

Will they make mistakes? Sure they will. Will they need me in the future? Only time will tell, but I will be there for them the best I can. Just as I was the boss when they where children, they are their own boss now. I'm not perfect, I'm sure they can see my mistakes better than I can. They also see what the hell I was trying to convey to them as well when they could not understand that as a child.

There is no perfect parent and no set way to raise a child. You just have to be there and give a crap and try the best you can.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I champion my adults childrens freedom. I never expected them to be my clones. I enjoy seeing them make their own decisions and take responsibility in their lives. They are happy adjusted young adults making their own decisions. I can't help but to be proud of them. They have a work ethic and an optimistic view for their future.

Will they make mistakes? Sure they will. Will they need me in the future? Only time will tell, but I will be there for them the best I can. Just as I was the boss when they where children, they are their own boss now. I'm not perfect, I'm sure they can see my mistakes better than I can. They also see what the hell I was trying to convey to them as well when they could not understand that as a child.

There is no perfect parent and no set way to raise a child. You just have to be there and give a crap and try the best you can.

I heard a small anecdote once of a young pregnant woman sitting with her mother discussing what it will be like bringing her own child into this world.

The daughter at one point laughed and said to her mother, "Well, one thing's for sure. I sure won't be making the same mistakes you made with me!"

The mother then smiled and said, "Probably not, sweetheart. But one thing's for sure. You'll be making your own mistakes."

What does this mean in reference to the OP? Let's see...tolerance for other views? Acceptance for other beliefs and practices if they're only different and not crossing the line into clear and present abuse or danger?

I could go all day with pointing fingers at people who eat fast food most days of the week, and who feed their children fast food on any regular basis, who freak out at the first sign of a cold and ask their doctor to pump them full of antibiotics when they just have a sore throat, and who do the same with their own children....

But what's the point? These are families that are trying to do their best for their kids with the time, money, and resources they have. To expand on this, people in general are trying to do their best with what resources, money, time, and knowledge that they have. With this in mind, I KNOW that it's okay when people do things a little funny or weird. Wal-Mart crowds are hilarious, but are they to be banned, jailed, or fined because they arrive with such fanfare and without pants? Am I to be banned for laughing at or mocking the absurdity?

I dunno. I'm kinda rambling right now. Just had a lengthy photo shoot and now I need coffee before a long night of rehearsals for the show.

 

[apophenia]

I find it ironic how many people posting in this thread champion freedom and then turn around and display the same mentality of intolerance in the same breath.

Here in America we are free to speak our minds, free to worship or not worship as we see fit, raise our children differently and to bear arms.

The OP wants to eliminate our freedom of speech while others want to restrict religious teachings or others want to take away our guns.

Myself, I champion freedom and do not want to be restricted. People who want to tell parents how to raise their children are no different than Godobeyer wanting to control your speech.

Just for the record, I made the remarks I did to make a point to Godobeyer, and anyone else interested, that much of what muslims and christians say publically is very offensive, and so the idea of making it illegal to offend the religious would need to be met with the equal and fair banning of statements from the religious which are offensive to others.

This would become an unacceptable absurdity, and also effectively end everyone's free speech.

You have reacted to me in an extreme, insulting, and frankly, ridiculous way. But I am not demanding that you should be legally restrained from teaching your religion, as long as no-one is prevented from telling your children that they have been brainwashed with theo-psycho-babble.

I certainly do consider however, that no-one should have the right to inflict coercive and psychotic ideas on other people's children in public schools or public institutions, because it most certainly is child abuse, even though you lack the insight to see that.

It reminds me of the illuminati joke about teaching parrots to say "here kitty kitty kitty".

For those of us who are not the deluded products of theology, religion is clearly a manufactured mental illness. It is not natural - it has to be inculcated in trusting young minds. It is not necessary in any way whatsoever, and historically has been just as negative a force as the worst excesses of dictatorship or communism or the nazi party.

I am curious - if you found that an adult was teaching ritual satanism to children in your local area (including your children when they were young), how would you feel about that ?

Would you champion the satanist's freedom to do so ? Would you be offended or disturbed if your children were being taught these ideas ?

BTW, I'm curious, how do you feel about positive references to Jesus and god being made in public schools ? Should it be allowed ?

If the answer is yes, how do you feel about satanist teachers saying "Hail Satan" to children in public schools ?

Do you champion their freedom to do so in schools which your children or grandchildren attend ?

 

[Storm]

I certainly do consider however, that no-one should have the right to inflict coercive and psychotic ideas on other people's children in public schools or public institutions, because it most certainly is child abuse, even though you lack the insight to see that.

Wow! Moving the goal posts, strawman, AND ad hom all in one sentence.

Is that a record?

 

[apophenia]

Wow! Moving the goal posts, strawman, AND ad hom all in one sentence.

Is that a record?

You clearly missed the righteous Reverend's insults and goal-post shifting. I am just talking to him in his own style. Mimicking him you might say, to see if he can recognise how offensive he can be.

 

[Storm]

You clearly missed the righteous Reverend's insults and goal-post shifting. I am just talking to him in his own style.

That would be 'cause he wasn't. The argument was that it should be considered child abuse to teach one's OWN children points of theology that totally irrelevant people find objectionable.

 

[apophenia]

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophenia

So I am saying that anyone who teaches children that there is a hell is committing child abuse. This is true for christians and muslims.

Reverend Rick :
What a steaming pile of donkey dung!

 

[Storm]

Ignoring the rest of the conversation doesn't justify trying to reinvent it.

ETA: What part of your own post specified "other people's children?"

 

[apophenia]

You are entitled to your opinion.

The reverend established insult as the tone of our interaction.

I expressed an opinion that the idea of hell is psychotic, and suggested he lacked insight. He chose to initiate outright personal insult. I have been very restrained in my response.

We may disagree. Let's move on ...