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Aren’t we all really worshipping the same God?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I understand that you can't believe in Baha'u'llah, but Baha'u'llah never claimed to be the Creator.
My mind has not changed on this topic CG. It is what has always been offered, God is unknowable and unapproachable. This has many explanations to consider.
We can only know God via "Christ", the "Annointed One", the chosen "Self of God". The man that has been born of the Holy Spirit.
Thus all we know of God, has only come from these Messengers, who are all One in the Holy Spirit. Many Names, many attributes, One source, the Holy Spirit given of God.
Our minds inspiration comes from two sources. Either from the Holy Spirit or our own worldly self. That is what Faith is all about, making the choice between our own self and that of what the Messengers have demonstrated and told us about.
One thought only, as you raises it in your post, the Trinity.
Jesus did not teach a "Trinity", Muhammad told the Christians that it was erroneous and to desist with it. So where did that teaching come from, the mind of men, or from the Holy Spirit? Your choice. While making the choice, reflect on the result that such a doctrine has produced in the minds of mankind.
Regards Tony
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Absolutely not.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I understand that you can't believe in Baha'u'llah, but Baha'u'llah never claimed to be the Creator.
There is no such thing as "the same god". It may well be that monotheisms with wide ranging ambitions need that to be the case, but it is not.
Religion in its valid forms would acknowledge reasonably widely present anxieties and needs, but those don't have much to do with either worship nor with any gods.
Religion in its valid forms would acknowledge reasonably widely present anxieties and needs, but those don't have much to do with either worship nor with any gods.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What do we really know from what Jesus, himself, taught? Nothing for sure... We have to trust in what the NT writers told us about him and what he said. Do Baha'is trust what they said?
"As to the question raised by...in connection with Bahá'u'lláh's statement in the 'Gleanings' concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael; although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the saying of Bahá'u'lláh, which, it should be pointed out, is fully corroborated by the Qur'an which book is far more authentic than the Bible, including both the New and Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh."
(From a letter dated July 28, 1936 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi
And what do we know about God from the Bible? He created Adam and Eve and then cursed them and the Earth after they disobeyed him. He flooded the whole world and killed all the people and animals except for those on the Ark with Noah. He parted the seas for Moses and the Hebrews, then he had the water come together again to drown the Egyptian army. He sent fire and brimstone down and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He had some bears maul some children that had mocked one of his prophets. And one that I've already mentioned, he had Elijah kills the prophets of Baal, because it was a false religion that believed in a false God. How much of that do Baha'is really believe happened? We know about the Gods of the different religions. Either God and his manifestation/messengers aren't very good communicators. Or they were foolish to let the followers in the religion write the Scriptures.
Or, as I think is much more likely, people made it all up. That would explain why the differences. Why so many Gods. Why so many different laws. Why one has people reincarnating and eventually reaching perfection. While another has people being sinners and in need of a Savior.
As far as religions go, I don't believe the Baha'i Faith is all that bad. I just don't believe all their claims and beliefs are true... especially "progressive" revelation.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I looked up "Creator Gods" and found this...
9 Gods of Life and Creation from Ancient Cultures
Table of Contents
I mean that God would be extremely deceitful in the way he talks to humans in the Quran, if Baha'allah interpretation is correct. I can't believe in this deceitful type God.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
There are many concepts of God being prayed to, but only "one" God to hear. Fortunately, He knows the heart and hears only the goodness. Namaste
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do the claims of the Baha'i Faith match up with things we know about the religions, beliefs, practices and the Gods of ancient religions? That's one problem.
Then there is this problem... is Baha'u'llah and the Bab the ones expected to return in Shia Islam? Are they who Christians, who Buddhists, Hindus, the Jews and the other religions expect to return in the end-times? The Baha'i claim is that Baha'u'llah and the Bab are the ones expected and predicted in all the religions.
How do they prove that? What evidence can they show to back up their claims? For years now, all these threads hit dead ends. The evidence and proof are there for the believers. But is too vague or not there at all for others. So, they try again with another thread. All they want is peace and unity... along with wanting people to at least acknowledge that they are a true religion, if not believe in Baha'u'llah and join the Baha'i Faith.
That's the big barrier... to acknowledge them means to believe and support their claims. If a person believes their claims, then they should join them. Once a person joins them, then any old belief that doesn't fit into Baha'i beliefs must be discarded.
You know what it would mean to you. For a born-again Christian it would be a radical change... no more 6-day Creation, no more world-wide flood, no more sin nature, no more resurrection, no more Jesus being God and on and on. But is it any better for people in any of the other religions?
It's a huge commitment. A person had better be sure. Baha'is are supposed to investigate truth for themselves, but how deep did their investigation go? I think in a lot of cases, it wasn't all that deep. The Baha'i Faith made sense to them, their old beliefs didn't, so they joined. But does the Baha'i Faith stand up to deeper scrutiny? For you and I, so far, it hasn't.
I trust the Bible to be a sure spiritual guide CG.
Baha'u'llah said this about the Messengers
"....Whatever in days gone by hath been the cause of the denial and opposition of those people hath now led to the perversity of the people of this age. To maintain that the testimony of Providence was incomplete, that it hath therefore been the cause of the denial of the people, is but open blasphemy. How far from the grace of the All-Bountiful and from His loving providence and tender mercies it is to single out a soul from amongst all men for the guidance of His creatures, and, on one hand, to withhold from Him the full measure of His divine testimony, and, on the other, inflict severe retribution on His people for having turned away from His chosen One!.."
Thus one can consider that must also reflect in the Word that has been left for those that do not live in the age of the Messengers. Surely they writers were inspired to write the Truth.
Note Islam offers the Bible is inaccurate because it would interfere with their doctrine. So instead of contemplating why there appears to be discrepancies, it is easier to say one is false.
I personally have no issues with all of this CG, it is all part of the Material world. Baha'u'llah and all the Messengers stand on their own person and their life. They were our perfect examples of the God given Message. By their fruits you will know them.
Regards Tony
No. There's various deities that exist, and they are very different. I've had experiences with different ones. Honestly, I have to leave monotheism behind because it doesn't really match with my experiences.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's more like "dumping" false conceptions of what God is, of what reality is. I'm just trying to express this more precisely.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's true that in the Old Testament, people wrote things that anthropomorphized Him, guessed at what His motivation was for certain things happening, etc.. I'm thinking of the history recounted especially.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, that is what I meant but you explained it better. I was just trying to mimic what CG had said.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Yes, that's what I thought you meant.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Here's what Baha'u'llah says in the Aqdas, which is the book of laws:
Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another's life, him also shall ye put to death. Take ye hold of the precepts of God with all your strength and power, and abandon the ways of the ignorant. Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book. He, verily, hath power to
ordain whatsoever He pleaseth.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 41)
It says in the notes of the Aqdas:
In His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá explains the difference between revenge and punishment. He affirms that individuals do not have the right to take revenge, that revenge is despised in the eyes of God, and that the motive for punishment is not vengeance, but the imposition of a penalty for the committed offence. In Some Answered Questions, He confirms that it is the right of society to impose punishments on criminals for the purpose of protecting its members and defending its existence.
With regard to this provision, Shoghi Effendi in a letter written on his behalf gives the following explanation:
In the Aqdas Bahá'u'lláh has given death as the penalty for murder. However, He has permitted life imprisonment as an alternative. Both practices would be in accordance with His Laws. Some of us may not be able to grasp the wisdom of this when it disagrees with our own
limited vision; but we must accept it, knowing His Wisdom, His Mercy and His Justice are perfect and for the salvation of the entire world. If a man were falsely condemned to die, can we not believe Almighty God would compensate him a thousandfold, in the next world, for this human injustice? You cannot give up a salutary law just because on rare occasions the innocent may be punished.
The details of the Bahá'í law of punishment for murder and arson, a law designed for a future state of society, were not specified by Bahá'u'lláh. The various details of the law, such as degrees of offence, whether extenuating circumstances are to be taken into account, and which of the two
prescribed punishments is to be the norm are left to the Universal House of Justice to decide in light of prevailing conditions when the law is to be in operation. The manner in which the punishment is to be carried out is also left to the Universal House of Justice to decide.
In relation to arson, this depends on what "house" is burned. There is obviously a tremendous difference in the degree of offence between the person who burns down an empty warehouse and one who sets fire to a school full of children.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 204)
In conclusion, I do not ask you to believe this is a good law. You would have to investigate the claim of infallibility of Baha'u'llah first to accept this probably.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
A sure guide to what? Being wrong? Without the supposedly "true" interpretations of the Bible and the NT by Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders, what would a person believe? They'd probably believe that Satan was real. That Jesus walked on water and cast out demons and the good old belief that he rose from the dead. That sin entered the world by one man's disobedience. And that would be Adam. And how "sure" is the Bible when Baha'u'llah himself says that the Bible has it wrong about which son Abraham took to be sacrificed?
It's not even a sure guide for Christians. Like the Christians that believe in the gifts of the spirit. They pray in tongues and have healing services, while other Christians don't believe those gifts are for today. And going by the "guidance" found in the NT, early Christians came to the conclusion that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were part of a trinitarian Godhead.
The only way Baha'is can make the Bible and the NT fit into their beliefs is to make several verses to be symbolic. If you didn't know to do that, and took it literally, what would you have? A sure guide to maybe Christian fundamentalism... but not to the Baha'i Faith.