Argh! Child Brides now Legal for Muslims in Germany and Denmark

[Thanda]

If you have a reason for believing that I am wrong please share it.
What I am seeing is Muslims fleeing the Islamic world by the millions and coming to the secular west.
Not South Africa or Iran or China or Russia or Venezuela...

You can assert that western countries like the USA aren't as welcoming as others. But the evidence is available.
Tom

We have our fair share of immigrants thank you very much - most are from our neighbours, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Lesotho, Swaziland, Mozambique, Ethopia, Nigeria, Sudan, and yes, even Somalia, Pakistan and Bangladesh. If we receive less Muslims from the North Africa and the middle-east, it is probably because we are in South Africa. But we don't have any issues with the Muslims we have here - they take multiple wives but are not allowed to marry child brides or carry out sharia law - Just the same as other tribes in South Africa - Zulus, Xhosas, Bushmen, are allowed to carry on with their traditions so long as they do not contradict the constitution. We don't have some weird fixation on Muslims and we get along just fine with them. Two of my best friends in school were Muslims. My first pharmacist (who always gave sweets every time we came to him) was Muslims. I'm sorry, but when I picture Muslims I picture good peaceful people - not the stereotypical caricatures many in the west have dreamed up for themselves.

 

[icehorse]

But we don't have any issues with the Muslims we have here - they take multiple wives but are not allowed to marry child brides or carry out sharia law - Just the same as other tribes in South Africa - Zulus, Xhosas, Bushmen, are allowed to carry on with their traditions so long as they do not contradict the constitution.

That's really the point of the OP - host nations should not have to change their laws to accommodate immigrants and refugees.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

With this I suppose you are trying to show how merciful and tolerant Americans are versus how intolerant Muslim nations are. Here's the thing though.

There is a very big difference when we have scientific data to back our laws of not allowing children to marry (they are still developing mentally and physically, afterall), versus the laws of a land that are based on an ancient religious book with no logic or reason to back them up.

Both you (your nation) and Muslim nations are willing to kill to punish certain violations of your value system.

That is a major false equivalency. The only thing we kill for is murder, and many Western countries and states don't even do that. Muslim countries kill over homosexuality, blasphemy, adultery, apostasy, or even just for being/not being Shia or Sunni (Actually, Muslims are the greatest threat to Muslims, and a far greater threat to Muslims than non-Muslims). And even for non-death punishable offenses, when is the last time you heard of a woman being beaten under legal sanction for not being fully covered from head to toe or punished for driving a car?

 

[oldbadger]

That's really the point of the OP - host nations should not have to change their laws to accommodate immigrants and refugees.

You don't get to set such rules.

European workers in some Mid-East countries and States are allowed to live their accustomed lifestyles as long as they stay on their work-base premises.

Host Nations should set their own values and rules, free from outsider's attempts to control such decisions.

 

[icehorse]

You don't get to set such rules.

European workers in some Mid-East countries and States are allowed to live their accustomed lifestyles as long as they stay on their work-base premises.

Host Nations should set their own values and rules, free from outsider's attempts to control such decisions.

doh!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You don't get to set such rules.

European workers in some Mid-East countries and States are allowed to live their accustomed lifestyles as long as they stay on their work-base premises.

Host Nations should set their own values and rules, free from outsider's attempts to control such decisions.

We should not have to or be expected to tolerate domestic violence, women being basically property, harassment of non-Muslims, or demands of censorship.
And, as you pointed out, some Middle Eastern countries. Jordan tends to be so uptight. Saudi Arabia tends to stir international controversy. Some Kurdish groups are also more liberal, but the Kurds have no state. Iran doesn't have homosexuals because they kill them. There are many things incoming immigrants can still do, but there are many things they cannot. Asking us to restrict our own freedoms tops that list of things they cannot do. And, really, what could a European (reasonably) petition a Muslim nation/culture to do that would require the people of that nation to have restrictions placed on the rights of the citizens of that nation?

 

[Augustus]

Ridiculous premise. Remove them by force. Into the sea? No unto the beach of the North African coast.
But I am not inhuman, give each of them water and other supplies to survive. Perhaps even a map or showing them the direction to the nearest town.

Unfortunately the North African coast belongs to Algeria, Tunisia et al who are unlikely to allow you to dump 200,000 people on their shores.

Other than that it's a plan...

 

[Flankerl]

who are unlikely to allow

And that's the thing. Realistically these 3rd world dumps have nothing to allow. Let the navies handle it, are they going to fire on EU countries battleships? I kinda doubt that.

These people are their responsibility not ours.

 

[oldbadger]

We should not have to or be expected to tolerate domestic violence, women being basically property, harassment of non-Muslims, or demands of censorship.
And, as you pointed out, some Middle Eastern countries. Jordan tends to be so uptight. Saudi Arabia tends to stir international controversy. Some Kurdish groups are also more liberal, but the Kurds have no state. Iran doesn't have homosexuals because they kill them. There are many things incoming immigrants can still do, but there are many things they cannot. Asking us to restrict our own freedoms tops that list of things they cannot do. And, really, what could a European (reasonably) petition a Muslim nation/culture to do that would require the people of that nation to have restrictions placed on the rights of the citizens of that nation?

But all the above is off topic, surely?

This thread is about Denmark and Germany acknowledging married couples where one spouse is 14yrs instead of 15yrs old. Age of consent in Denmark is 15yrs.

Some US States allow spouses to be very very young (in special circumstances). 13Yrs? I forget. Now, could such a married couple go to another State and live together without interference from authorities?

So, basically, Denmark and Germany are doing everything possible to recognise and acknowledge such couples. I have heard that arranged marriages last much better than proposed (western) marriages, in fact our success record in the West is pretty dreadful.

I wonder whether @Smart_Guy knows about marriage success in Mid-East countries...? It's no good us deciding that Mid-East marrioages are only successful 'cos wives are subdued, because our wife bashing record in the West is horrific. True?

 

[icehorse]

This thread is about Denmark and Germany acknowledging married couples where one spouse is 14yrs instead of 15yrs old.

No, this thread is about not allowing a host country's values to be compromised.

 

[columbus]

This thread is about Denmark and Germany acknowledging married couples where one spouse is 14yrs instead of 15yrs old. Age of consent in Denmark is 15yrs.

That isn't really what I am talking about.
What I am talking about is a broad strokes issue. People have zero right to inflict their cultural mores or beliefs on another people. Period.
If somebody wants in to Germany they have to do things, everything, the way Germans want it or marching them to the border and pushing them over it is entirely reasonable. I don't care how bad things are in places that will accommodate their preferences.
Tom

 

[Smart_Guy]

I wonder whether @Smart_Guy knows about marriage success in Mid-East countries...? It's no good us deciding that Mid-East marrioages are only successful 'cos wives are subdued, because our wife bashing record in the West is horrific. True?

The general thought behind this way of thinking is actually very good and unfortunately the vast majority of critics I've come across neglect it. Do they do it accidental, willingly or intentionally? I don't really know. We should never judge before having a practical true and thorough experience. Of course I won't pretend I don't do the same mistake too. But I try to keep it in the field of having impressions and not ascend that to the level of judgement and imposing it on others as if I'm perfect in my supposed conclusions based in let's say news and reports.

As for the specific thought, I can't tell about the whole Middle East since it has a huge wide culture, belief and (get ready) religious range. But I can tell about my own community. Success rate for marriage here is outstanding. It deteriorated lately, but by all means, it did not even come below outstanding. But I can tell at least that the family unity and relationships around many parts of the Middle East are so strong. I suppose we all know that marriage is what a family is built on. The stronger the roots of a tree are, naturally the more that tree could grow higher and wider with more branches connected to the body. You may quote me, I just made that up

 

[Kirran]

How do you judge marriage success?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some US States allow spouses to be very very young (in special circumstances). 13Yrs?

New Hampshire is the only one (and even then, with parental consent, the DCS/CPS is likely to examine the case under a microscope). Every other state you must be 16 or 17 with parental consent, with 18 being the legal age, with the exception of Mississippi, where couples must be at least 21 to wed without parental consent.
And, of course, we don't expect it, we don't force it, we don't arrange it, and it's not a normal or regular part of our culture.

 

[oldbadger]

No, this thread is about not allowing a host country's values to be compromised.

So just who has the right to refuse Denmark's and Germany's rights to make their own decisions about such matters. You?

Doh!

 

[oldbadger]

That isn't really what I am talking about.
What I am talking about is a broad strokes issue. People have zero right to inflict their cultural mores or beliefs on another people. Period.

Clearly Denmark and Germany both disagree, in as much as they don't think that refugees are inflicting anything on anyone.

If somebody wants in to Germany they have to do things, everything, the way Germans want it or marching them to the border and pushing them over it is entirely reasonable. I don't care how bad things are in places that will accommodate their preferences.
Tom

Clearly Denmark and Germany disagree about this, and so do we in the UK, since we have an Equality Act which makes it unlawful to discriminate against anybody on the grounds of disability, race, religion, colour, nationality, age, sex, sexual orientation, creed, marital status or most anything else.
In fact your ideas would be seen to be unlawful here in the UK, and since Europe has a parallel Equality Act (I believe) then most of Europe would not listen to you either.

 

[oldbadger]

The general thought behind this way of thinking is actually very good and unfortunately the vast majority of critics I've come across neglect it. Do they do it accidental, willingly or intentionally? I don't really know. We should never judge before having a practical true and thorough experience. Of course I won't pretend I don't do the same mistake too. But I try to keep it in the field of having impressions and not ascend that to the level of judgement and imposing it on others as if I'm perfect in my supposed conclusions based in let's say news and reports.

As for the specific thought, I can't tell about the whole Middle East since it has a huge wide culture, belief and (get ready) religious range. But I can tell about my own community. Success rate for marriage here is outstanding. It deteriorated lately, but by all means, it did not even come below outstanding. But I can tell at least that the family unity and relationships around many parts of the Middle East are so strong. I suppose we all know that marriage is what a family is built on. The stronger the roots of a tree are, naturally the more that tree could grow higher and wider with more branches connected to the body. You may quote me, I just made that up

All great points.
I have known many Muslims closely here in the UK and all but one couple are very close in harmonius and happy relationships. Two of the wives have explained to me that they met their future husbands by arrangement and then decided to get to know each other, slowly coming to love. They both thought that singles clubs, cattle-market nightclubs and dating agencies were weird ideas!

The unhappy couple in fact included an unhappy husband, whose wife was the quietest, sweetest, most beautiful lady..... he was a fool imo, but you get them in any culture.

 

[icehorse]

So just who has the right to refuse Denmark's and Germany's rights to make their own decisions about such matters. You?

Doh!

From what I'm hearing, many European governments are making decisions that their people don't agree with. I would acknowledge that no democracies are perfect at representing the will of the people, but isn't that what they're all shooting for?

Really, was that unclear to you?

 

[oldbadger]

From what I'm hearing, many European governments are making decisions that their people don't agree with. I would acknowledge that no democracies are perfect at representing the will of the people, but isn't that what they're all shooting for?

Really, was that unclear to you?

I have yet to hear of any country where all the people agree with all the policies.

However since Denmark and Germany are democracies their leaders have the right to make humane decisions. If you don't like them, just don't go to them!

 

[icehorse]

I have yet to hear of any country where all the people agree with all the policies.

However since Denmark and Germany are democracies their leaders have the right to make humane decisions. If you don't like them, just don't go to them!

Dude! Last I checked, we were on a debate forum? I'll criticize whatever ideas I want to.