Argh! Child Brides now Legal for Muslims in Germany and Denmark

[columbus]

You can criticise Germany for being too willing to accept them and not trying to prevent them from entering, but that was their choice. Once in the system then their hands are tied.

This might change if the political parties that are gaining support across Europe continue to gain power.
Tom

 

[Augustus]

Maybe this is true, but that is not my understanding. My understanding is that the refugees generally pass through countries like Algeria on their way elsewhere, like Germany.
I don't claim to really know and I have seen dramatically different claims and figures.
But my bottom line remains. Why don't refugees stick to places that accommodate whatever is most important to them. If that is a marriage that is problematic in the host countries then go somewhere else.
How you get there is no more Germany's responsibility than how you got to Germany.
Tom

Your understanding is incorrect then.

Obviously many think it is better to live in Germany. Some want to stay closer to their own culture though or where they have family or friends or connections. Others want to go home as soon as possible. Others can't afford to go there or are physically incapable.

How you get to Germany is irrelevant once you are in Germany. Your motives are irrelevant. Can you explain how to forcibly remove people when no other country will accept them from you?

Would you push them out to sea?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hi Smart_Guy, Good to see you, no need to leave!

What we see in these various articles is always the situation of a young girl being married to an older man, right? It's never the other way around. We have to rule out economic reasons, because the people we're discussing here claim to be refugees, correct?

If I understand correctly, you're saying that you specifically say "forced marriage", in comparison to the fact that consent of teenagers to have sex exists, is because in various articles it is always the situation of a young girl being married to an older man and never the other way around. Is that correct?

I'm also interested in your remark in relation to the above:

So why is it that all these young girls marry older men, but we don't see young men marrying older women?

By "why don't we see", do you mean in articles?

Sorry for all of this. I'm just interested in your view about it.

 

[Augustus]

This might change if the political parties that are gaining support across Europe continue to gain power.
Tom

It would require leaving the EU, withdrawing from certain international treaties, changing domestic law and paying a billion or two to a poor country to accept them (unless Syria was more stable).

It might happen, but it is not as simple as saying 'my way or the highway'.

It took Britain years to extradite a known al-Qaeda terrorist to Jordan (who were very eager to take him) because of European Law.

 

[columbus]

Your understanding is incorrect then.

This would make an interesting thread. I made posts for over a year asking why so many people want to go to western countries and then gripe about the culture. The general answer was that Muslim countries like Algeria and Saudi Arabia and Iran don't want them and will just turn them away or let them starve.
Tom

 

[columbus]

It would require leaving the EU, withdrawing from certain international treaties, changing domestic law and paying a billion or two to a poor country to accept them (unless Syria was more stable).

It might happen, but it is not as simple as saying 'my way or the highway'.

It took Britain years to extradite a known al-Qaeda terrorist to Jordan (who were very eager to take him) because of European Law.

I hope all that changes. And I expect it to change, since the problem shows little sign of going away.
Tom

 

[icehorse]

Sorry for all of this. I'm just interested in your view about it.

Hi Smart_Guy,

Correct, I'm making a distinction between consensual sex between young people and a young girl being married to an older man. Those are two very different situations.

And yes, when I say "what we see", I'm referring to all of the various news reports those of us not living in Europe read about what's happening in Europe.

My view - arrived at after much research from many sources - is that in many Muslim cultures, it is acceptable for grown men to have young girls as wives. In the West, we tend to believe that girls should be older before they can be married. There are exceptions, but this is the basic tendency.

 

[Kirran]

Let me make this a little more pointed and personal.
I am gay. Islamic culture is notoriously homophobic, while European culture is far less so and improving all the time.
I would have no ethical problem requiring an immigrant to agree in writing in their native language to support gay rights including marriage and adoption.
They don't have to do it. But they also don't get past the border if they don't. Why should gay people agree to foreigners coming in to their country if they don't support gay rights? Let the immigrants go elsewhere if they don't want European culture.
Tom

I'd agree for immigrants.

Not for refugees.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hi Smart_Guy,

Correct, I'm making a distinction between consensual sex between young people and a young girl being married to an older man. Those are two very different situations.

And yes, when I say "what we see", I'm referring to all of the various news reports those of us not living in Europe read about what's happening in Europe.

My view - arrived at after much research from many sources - is that in many Muslim cultures, it is acceptable for grown men to have young girls as wives. In the West, we tend to believe that girls should be older before they can be married. There are exceptions, but this is the basic tendency.

Well, not sure if I can trust the media to make a judgement, or how other Muslim cultures have it in this regard, but at least in my Muslim community it is the basic tendency as well.

But I got the answer I'm looking for. Thank you

 

[Thanda]

We are. But that is not the point.
The point is that people can do things their way in their country. But if they want to move to a different one they have the obligation to conform to the new country.

I don't think that this is the least bit unclear or unreasonable. If some aspect of western culture doesn't suit, go to a Muslim country. It's that simple.
Tom

No you're not. You merely tolerate what your value system allows you to tolerate - you are intolerant of everything else. Just as Muslim countries are tolerant of whatever their value system allows them to tolerate and are intolerant of everything else. Both you (your nation) and Muslim nations are willing to kill to punish certain violations of your value system.

 

[columbus]

I'd agree for immigrants.

Not for refugees.

I understand what you're saying. But for many things I don't think that the distinction is the important one.
Marriage is one. Laws and cultural norms about that is very different from cooking preference. Speech norms are another. While I find "holocaust denial" extremely gross, I wouldn't interfere with someone who claimed it. That is how we do things here in the USA. I disagree with German laws forbidding that. But if I went there I would recognize that their ways are different and I would respect that. Because I am going to Germany, and they deserve that I conform to German norms and laws.
Similarly, if I wanted to leave the USA I would not choose a destination where my marriage is verboten. I would go to Canada and not Saudi Arabia. Because my marriage is more important than the destination.
Tom

 

[columbus]

No you're not. You merely tolerate what your value system allows you to tolerate - you are intolerant of everything else. Just as Muslim countries are tolerant of whatever their value system allows them to tolerate and are intolerant of everything else. Both you (your nation) and Muslim nations are willing to kill to punish certain violations of your value system.

Sorry dude, this is an utterly irrelevant false equivalent. We, here in the USA, are vastly more welcoming and tolerant of nearly anything than any Muslim dominated culture or country.
There is no comparison.
The same is true of nearly every western country.
Tom

 

[Kirran]

I understand what you're saying. But for many things I don't think that the distinction is the important one.
Marriage is one. Laws and cultural norms about that is very different from cooking preference. Speech norms are another. While I find "holocaust denial" extremely gross, I wouldn't interfere with someone who claimed it. That is how we do things here in the USA. I disagree with German laws forbidding that. But if I went there I would recognize that their ways are different and I would respect that. Because I am going to Germany, and they deserve that I conform to German norms and laws.
Similarly, if I wanted to leave the USA I would not choose a destination where my marriage is verboten. I would go to Canada and not Saudi Arabia. Because my marriage is more important than the destination.
Tom

I think when people need sanctuary, they should be given it. Certainly, the norms in the host country need to be made very clear, but there need to be harm reduction strategies in place regarding their views on things, on their existing relationships etc.

As for immigrants, not refugees, I personally don't think people who wouldn't accept their children having same-sex or interfaith marriages should be allowed to immigrate. Obviously they may just lie when asked, but actually that's still better than the ones who are so against it they wouldn't lie to come to a country.

 

[oldbadger]

We are. But that is not the point.
The point is that people can do things their way in their country. But if they want to move to a different one they have the obligation to conform to the new country.

I don't think that this is the least bit unclear or unreasonable. If some aspect of western culture doesn't suit, go to a Muslim country. It's that simple.
Tom

You got that wrong... surely did!
Thread is about Muslims in Germany and Denmark, and both those countries are cosmopolitan, a bit like the UK I guess. 30 miles from where I live is the biggest Sikh community, Gravesend has the biggest Sikh temple in Europe I think. And we have very large Muslim communities, like Denmark and Germany.
But the bottom line is simply that we do all consider offering refuge to people who are in danger, and unlike your ideas, we try whenever possible to respect a refugee's culture and personal situation.
Your ideas about refugees wouldn't cut it here, methinks. You don't set out to oppress an oppressed refugee just because you got hot feelings about the countries which they ran from. And you don't threaten to send 'em back into danger. It's called Humanity, which is where our Human Rights Acts spring from.
And please don;'t tell me about all those nasty countries without such rights...... Germany and Denmark have 'em, which is what counts here.
Somebody mentioned a 14yr wife with a 28 yr husband for an example, That's a 14 yr difference. My wife is 20 yrs younger than me, and we've been happy together for 25 yrs now. Best thing to do with happy people is to leave them be, best thing to do with oppressed people is to help them. But you don't go trying to fix folks who ain't broke!

 

[Flankerl]

but that was their choice

lol

Merkel pretty much decided that alone and without consulting her Cabinet, nor bringing it up for discussion in the lower or upper house.

"their choice"... "roflmao" is what we used to say to stuff like that back in the days.

Germany hasn't altered any laws to accommodate them.

Another funny joke. Yeah nothing changed, apart from that the Police came forward and confessed that it fixed the crime statistics and doesn't record low-level crimes like theft, robbery or battery anymore if the suspect is from a certain "cultural background".

Oh and all those fun incidents in public swimming pools, nothing became of those because the legal system is so fun.

Oh and New Years Eve...


Nah nothing was altered. If you are from a certain "cultural background" you can do lot's of crap, but Herr Meier, you made a small error in this form here, that's a felony!
Absolutely ridiculous. The elections are going to be fun.

How would you remove those who didn't comply? Push them out to sea in a boat? This is why I'm saying you can't remove them, you'd literally have to throw them into the sea.

Ridiculous premise. Remove them by force. Into the sea? No unto the beach of the North African coast.
But I am not inhuman, give each of them water and other supplies to survive. Perhaps even a map or showing them the direction to the nearest town.

 

[icehorse]

I'd agree for immigrants.

Not for refugees.

There have been MANY reports of economic opportunists masquerading as refugees. And even for legitimate refugees, it's more than fair for the host country to say: "you are welcome, but there are aspects of your culture that are not."

 

[columbus]

I think when people need sanctuary, they should be given it.

I disagree.
If somebody wants what you have they must follow your rules.
If my next door neighbors house caught fire I would bring them in from the cold to my house. But they are not going to make the rules in my house. Stay, or don't stay. But they are not going to light a joint in my house because I don't allow that. Fire one up and I will shove you and your kids out onto the street. I have no problem with that. You don't get to inflict your culture on me in my home.
Tom

 

[Thanda]

Sorry dude, this is an utterly irrelevant false equivalent. We, here in the USA, are vastly more welcoming and tolerant of nearly anything than any Muslim dominated culture or country.
There is no comparison.
The same is true of nearly every western country.
Tom

Keep believing it - one day it may come true.

 

[icehorse]

Keep believing it - one day it may come true.

Wow! What are your sources of information?

 

[columbus]

Keep believing it - one day it may come true.

If you have a reason for believing that I am wrong please share it.
What I am seeing is Muslims fleeing the Islamic world by the millions and coming to the secular west.
Not South Africa or Iran or China or Russia or Venezuela...

You can assert that western countries like the USA aren't as welcoming as others. But the evidence is available.
Tom