Argh! Child Brides now Legal for Muslims in Germany and Denmark

[columbus]

I don't think it will be the end of Western culture, but it does run a very high risk of consequences that no one is going to like.

It will be the destruction of western culture UNLESS the ugly consequences come first.
This is because of Islam and the teachings of the Quran. People can keep saying that not all Muslims are that way. But it doesn't have to be all Muslims. Just enough Muslims. And that isn't very many.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It will be the destruction of western culture UNLESS the ugly consequences come first.
This is because of Islam and the teachings of the Quran. People can keep saying that not all Muslims are that way. But it doesn't have to be all Muslims. Just enough Muslims. And that isn't very many.
Tom

I am confident these (very) ugly consequences will happen first. I foresee it beginning with a similar rise in nationalism, resurgence of Facism, and other dictator ideologies coming to prominence in a way similar to what was witness during the early/early-mid 20th century. And it won't be an invasion, because they can't invade. But a group that is already widely disliked requesting special privileges and rights is a good way to make enemies, and nothing unites people like an enemy.
Really, it's up to moderate and liberal Muslims to work towards preventing this. They have to act, they have to denounce certain approaches towards Islam, and they must denounce various practices of Middle Eastern/African Muslim nations. They are the only ones who can bridge this gap. Failure to do this will see them being treated and tried (legally) as no differently than a Jihadist. If concentration and labor camps appear again in Western culture, there will be no discerning between Muslims who cling to the pillar of Charity and those who adhere to bloody Jihad. All will be guilty, all will be damned.

 

[Thanda]

The husband.
He can avoid that by leaving the country.
Tom

So you're first going to take from him a wife he legally got in his own country and then force him to pay for her? Are you really thinking about what you are saying?

 

[oldbadger]

It depends. How can you possibly think that is a question without a booklength answer?
One answer might be refuse entry.

Do you think foreigners have a right to enter a country with no reservations? Does somebody have a right to enter Germany if the Germans don't want them?
Tom

So you cannot answer the question.
Or is it that you don't want to answer the question?

A married couple is a married couple, and a young wife married in a foreign country is not necessarly an unhappy wife.
If a country decides to accept such couples, especially if seeking refuge, then 'great'.
Have you figured out that once in a European country an oppressed spouse could seek help?

 

[Thanda]

Let me make this a little more pointed and personal.
I am gay. Islamic culture is notoriously homophobic, while European culture is far less so and improving all the time.
I would have no ethical problem requiring an immigrant to agree in writing in their native language to support gay rights including marriage and adoption.
They don't have to do it. But they also don't get past the border if they don't. Why should gay people agree to foreigners coming in to their country if they don't support gay rights? Let the immigrants go elsewhere if they don't want European culture.
Tom

Ah I could tell this was personal.

 

[columbus]

So you're first going to take from him a wife he legally got in his own country and then force him to pay for her? Are you really thinking about what you are saying?

Yes I am thinking about what I am saying.
But it is not what you think it is.

I am not talking about taking a wife away from anybody. Only making sure that she knows she is not in an Islamic place any more and has power and choices that she didn't have in the Islamic place everybody is fleeing.
Because Islamic places aren't all that great for millions of the people who are born and raised there. Germany is not only better, it's different.
Especially for young women. She doesn't have to do anything just because Muslims do it in the nasty place she escaped from. She's as free as the Germans, in Germany.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Have you figured out that once in a European country an oppressed spouse could seek help?

Offering the women an education, and then deporting the husband for refusing to allow her is a good start. Women are not owned and controlled by their husbands in the West, and this must be respected. If a Syrian-married woman wants an education and her husband refuses, domestic laws and immigration laws should come into play. In Germany she will have freedoms and privileges unknown and unheard of back home, and they should not be expected/forced to forego these gains in rights, liberties, and domestic/social power because "back home" she's hardly better off than property and often held responsible for things that aren't her fault (such as rape).

 

[icehorse]

So you're first going to take from him a wife he legally got in his own country...

Perhaps this is a typo, but that sure sounds like you consider a wife to be a possession?

 

[Thanda]

Yes I am thinking about what I am saying.
But it is not what you think it is.

I am not talking about taking a wife away from anybody. Only making sure that she knows she is not in an Islamic place any more and has power and choices that she didn't have in the Islamic place everybody is fleeing.
Because Islamic places aren't all that great for millions of the people who are born and raised there. Germany is not only better, it's different.
Especially for young women. She doesn't have to do anything just because Muslims do it in the nasty place she escaped from. She's as free as the Germans, in Germany.
Tom

I'm specifically questioning you on your assertion that if the young wife decided to take up the offer of moving to a home away from her husband (after you have indoctrinated her with your views and beliefs) you would force him to pay for her up keep against the threat of deportation. I'm asking you how this makes any sense

 

[Thanda]

Perhaps this is a typo, but that sure sounds like you consider a wife to be a possession?

There is no typo. A wife is a possession as much or as little as a husband or child is a possession. A wife belongs to her husband and a husband belongs to his wife, a parent to a child and vice versa. We all belong to each other in this world, tied together by mutual obligations to one another as dictated by social contracts and interpersonal agreements.

 

[columbus]

Ah I could tell this was personal.

Morality is personal to me, in many ways.
I used an example that was more personal than the OP. I am not young, or female.

I don't think that I am morally obligated to let someone into my country that opposes my fundamental values. I don't think that Germans are either? Why is Germany expected to do things that Saudi Arabia or Algeria refuse to do? And why do religious people like Muslims think that they have rights other people don't have? Why is it ok for Iran to enforce moral codes on stewardesses from France, but expecting Muslim immigrants to France to do things the French way is islamophobic?
Tom

 

[columbus]

I'm specifically questioning you on your assertion that if the young wife decided to take up the offer of moving to a home away from her husband (after you have indoctrinated her with your views and beliefs) you would force him to pay for her up keep against the threat of deportation. I'm asking you how this makes any sense

Because he chose a non-Muslim country to flee Islamic culture to.
Yes, I absolutely would give her that option and stick him with a bill that he must pay or get deported. And she gets the kids, because that is how we do things here.
He is free to swim back to wherever.
Tom

 

[Thanda]

Because he chose a non-Muslim country to flee Islamic culture to.
Yes, I absolutely would give her that option and stick him with a bill that he must pay or get deported. And she gets the kids, because that is how we do things here.
He is free to swim back to wherever.
Tom

Well that is just evil. Nothing at all noble or moral about that position - I am glad most of your leaders do not share your views.

 

[Thanda]

Morality is personal to me, in many ways.
I used an example that was more personal than the OP. I am not young, or female.

I don't think that I am morally obligated to let someone into my country that opposes my fundamental values. I don't think that Germans are either? Why is Germany expected to do things that Saudi Arabia or Algeria refuse to do? And why do religious people like Muslims think that they have rights other people don't have? Why is it ok for Iran to enforce moral codes on stewardesses from France, but expecting Muslim immigrants to France to do things the French way is islamophobic?
Tom

My opinion on this matter was set forth in a previous post I'll quote it here.:

There are two ways of looking at refugees (and consequently at this particular topic of discussion). Either they are a separate people who are kept in a separate (from the rest of the host countries society) place of waiting until their country has stabilized before being returned; or they are people who must be forced immigrants who wish to become a part of the countries they flee to.
In the first scenario the case can be strongly made for the host country to recognize as many of the refugees cultural norms of the refugees as possible, without infringing on the rights on the host country's people. Therefore, for the particular case of child marriages, you would allow these marriages to continue but you would not allow a refugee to marry an underage citizen on the host country and you would not issue marriage licences to refugees if one of the participants is underage.
In the second scenario, where you are assuming that the refugees are in fact immigrants who want to integrate into the host society, then a case can be made for the host country to be much less compromising with the refugees.

I believe there is a compromise that can be struck between these two positions. Refugees can be placed in separate camps where they may continue, largely untroubled with most of their cultural arrangements within limits. Or they may choose to opt into their host country and in doing so commit to living and upholding the laws and ordinances of the host country and do all they have to do to make themselves compliant (including divorce if necessary).

 

[columbus]

Well that is just evil. Nothing at all noble or moral about that position - I am glad most of your leaders do not share your views.

What's evil is religious people believing that they have the right to inflict their culture on people against their will.
Many leaders in the USA agree with me, and it appears that European leaders like Marine Le Pen get it that Europeans as a group agree as well.
Tom
ETA ~Point of clarification: I am a US citizen and we just elected a president who promised to ban Muslim immigrants until "we get this straightened out". Whatever that means.~

 

[Thanda]

Because he chose a non-Muslim country to flee Islamic culture to.
Yes, I absolutely would give her that option and stick him with a bill that he must pay or get deported. And she gets the kids, because that is how we do things here.
He is free to swim back to wherever.
Tom

Oh and you guys routinely take children away from their fathers in cases of divorce - how ironically stereotypical you are

 

[Thanda]

What's evil is religious people believing that they have the right to inflict their culture on people against their will.
Many leaders in the USA agree with me, and it appears that European leaders like Marine Le Pen get it that Europeans as a group agree as well.
Tom

The guy fled to your country with his wife (whom he probably loves or he would have simply left her behind ) and you now claim he is inflicting his culture on you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The guy fled to your country with his wife (whom he probably loves or he would have simply left her behind ) and you now claim he is inflicting his culture on you?

With the way many expect us to cater to their beliefs, such as allowing child-spouses, censoring images of Muhammad, censoring our speech, even requesting that we not eat in their presence during Ramadan are attempts to inflict their culture on us. That is not how we do things - they can respect this or go elsewhere that does agree with their views.
As Columbus pointed out, places like Saudi Arabia will not bend or yield, and they will expect those from other lands to adhere to Saudi law. Why should we grant any special privileges or rights?

 

[columbus]

Oh and you guys routinely take children away from their fathers in cases of divorce - how ironically stereotypical you are

No, it's consistent. But we don't always do that. The courts here tend to assume that mothers do child care and fathers support the family, even if he dumped them for a trophy wife.
How things are done in Germany I don't know.
But I am back to my point. If somebody doesn't like German culture, with their dress and rights and child care norms and everything else, they should stay out.
Stay Out!
They are perfectly free to go somewhere that they find more suitable.
The Germans don't owe them anything that the Chinese or Algerians don't owe them.
Tom

 

[Thanda]

No, it's consistent. But we don't always do that. The courts here tend to assume that mothers do child care and fathers support the family, even if he dumped them for a trophy wife.
How things are done in Germany I don't know.
But I am back to my point. If somebody doesn't like German culture, with their dress and rights and child care norms and everything else, they should stay out.
Stay Out!
They are perfectly free to go somewhere that they find more suitable.
The Germans don't owe them anything that the Chinese or Algerians don't owe them.
Tom

Assumption is the mother of all...

And I thought you were holding up your country as a standard of equality.