Argh! Child Brides now Legal for Muslims in Germany and Denmark

[Sakeenah]

We allow child brides and grooms in the UK actually.
With parental permission any 16yr old can marry.
In Denmark the age of consent is 15 yrs.
But for any self-righteous and indignant folks who might object to a 14yrs old wife being forcibly separated from her spouse, or even refused refuge into a safe country because she happens to be married, then they need to face the fact that a % of European girls and boys have experienced sexual intercourse at younger ages than 14 yrs. Let's put our own kids in order before we leave 14yrs old girls out there in danger, refused entry to safe countries.
Yeah?

 

[oldbadger]

12 year old boy had a baby with a 14 year old girl in the town just over from me a few years ago.

Sure, and many kids around here have had sexual experience by their early teens (or younger). So if a married couple seek refuge here then we do need to take their cultures into consideration before we try to separate them.
I seem to remember that one or two US States do allow very very young teens to marry under certain situations.... ?

 

[Flankerl]

The age of consent in Germany is 14 and in Denmark it's 15.

According to the BBC article you posted, the official confusion is reflected in one reported case in Germany a 15-year-old Syrian girl married to her 21-year-old cousin.
If they wouldn't have been married but were in a relationship it would have been legal.

No its not that simple.
A 14-15 year old may have Sex with a 18-21 year old IF the 18-21 year old does not exploit the 14-15 year old. For example if the 14-15 year old is in financial plight etc.
Also the 18-21 year old can't exploit the sexual self-determination of the 14-15 year old.

Its not as simple as you may want it to be.

 

[Kirran]

No its not that simple.
A 14-15 year old may have Sex with a 18-21 year old IF the 18-21 year old does not exploit the 14-15 year old. For example if the 14-15 year old is in financial plight etc.
Also the 18-21 year old can't exploit the sexual self-determination of the 14-15 year old.

Its not as simple as you may want it to be.

So would it be illegal for a 14 year old in a relationship with a 20 year old to be financially reliant on the 20 year old?

 

[icehorse]

I know..

Would you be okay with a 14 year old girl being in a intimate relationship with a 21 year old guy?

I personally wouldn't be. But the point is that no country should bend its laws to the will of immigrants. Why should the more successful culture and society compromise on its values?

 

[Kirran]

I personally wouldn't be. But the point is that no country should bend its laws to the will of immigrants. Why should the more successful culture and society compromise on its values?

You're setting up these two monolithic groups as being in opposition to one another. In practice, these groups are composed of individuals, and individuals of varying backgrounds make up a society. Many societies have incorporated ideals which have been brought in through immigration, be they positive or negative from our perspectives.

 

[icehorse]

We allow child brides and grooms in the UK actually.
With parental permission any 16yr old can marry.
In Denmark the age of consent is 15 yrs.
But for any self-righteous and indignant folks who might object to a 14yrs old wife being forcibly separated from her spouse, or even refused refuge into a safe country because she happens to be married, then they need to face the fact that a % of European girls and boys have experienced sexual intercourse at younger ages than 14 yrs. Let's put our own kids in order before we leave 14yrs old girls out there in danger, refused entry to safe countries.
Yeah?

Let's not conflate consensual sex between teenagers with forced marriages between a 14 year old girl and an older man. The odds of coercion in the latter case are quite high.

 

[icehorse]

You're setting up these two monolithic groups as being in opposition to one another. In practice, these groups are composed of individuals, and individuals of varying backgrounds make up a society. Many societies have incorporated ideals which have been brought in through immigration, be they positive or negative from our perspectives.

Many of these "marriages" are based on coercion. This is not an ideal of modern society.

 

[Kirran]

Many of these "marriages" are based on coercion. This is not an ideal of modern society.

Certainly, I agree.

 

[columbus]

You're setting up these two monolithic groups as being in opposition to one another. In practice, these groups are composed of individuals, and individuals of varying backgrounds make up a society. Many societies have incorporated ideals which have been brought in through immigration, be they positive or negative from our perspectives.

I think you are doing that more than icehorse. What he, and I, are talking about is more about cultural stuff. Some is OK, but much is not. One of the things about Islamic culture we western people don't allow is the way Muslims often treat women. Young, arranged, possibly abusive marriages being imported to the west is utterly unacceptable to me. There is little to be done in countries were this is acceptable, but Germany does have ways to do it.
Tom

 

[esmith]

Those members who live in the U.S. shouldn't be condemning those in the EU until they also take a serious look at our country.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/opinion/americas-child-marriage-problem.html
http://www.wnyc.org/story/very-real-issue-child-marriage-america/

 

[icehorse]

Those members who live in the U.S. shouldn't be condemning those in the EU until they also take a serious look at our country.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/opinion/americas-child-marriage-problem.html
http://www.wnyc.org/story/very-real-issue-child-marriage-america/

I speak as an individual, not as a representative of my government. (And, BTW, I criticize my government and some of my fellow citizens quite a lot.)

But perhaps more importantly, isn't your argument a variation on the "two wrongs make it right" idea?

 

[Kirran]

I think you are doing that more than icehorse. What he, and I, are talking about is more about cultural stuff. Some is OK, but much is not. One of the things about Islamic culture we western people don't allow is the way Muslims often treat women. Young, arranged, possibly abusive marriages being imported to the west is utterly unacceptable to me. There is little to be done in countries were this is acceptable, but Germany does have ways to do it.
Tom

Do you think so? Maybe you're right, we are often blind to our own prejudices and biases.

I don't know, I think culture and religion are inextricably linked in such cases.

I agree that this isn't an institution which should take root in the West. However, when it comes to refugee cases I think the more humanitarian option is to let them in and keep that family structure intact, while of course the option should be clearly available for the child/woman to leave it (as for adult women, for that matter!).

 

[Augustus]

I personally wouldn't be. But the point is that no country should bend its laws to the will of immigrants. Why should the more successful culture and society compromise on its values?

You're still presenting it as if it applies to immigrants in general rather than refugees.

It's not about 'bending to the will' of immigrants, it is about how to deal with the reality of refugees married to underage girls. Refugees that you cannot send home.

It is about harm reduction - whether or not it is actually more harmful to 'protect' the girl by putting her in some kind of children's home. The article said 2 girls attempted suicide after they did that. You have to assume that the social workers involved do actually have the best interests of the girls at heart and better understand the situation that you do.

You are putting a very misleading spin on the story.

 

[icehorse]

You're still presenting it as if it applies to immigrants in general rather than refugees.

There are "migrants", "immigrants", "refugees" and so on. And many people call themselves refugees who are in fact economic opportunists. In any case, host countries should NOT change their laws to accommodate regressive ideas. Other solutions can be found, but not legal backsliding.

 

[esmith]

I speak as an individual, not as a representative of my government. (And, BTW, I criticize my government and some of my fellow citizens quite a lot.)

But perhaps more importantly, isn't your argument a variation on the "two wrongs make it right" idea?

No, what I was putting forward was that this issue is a world wide issue and that members on this forum that think it doesn't exist in the U.S. should be informed that it does.

 

[columbus]

Refugees that you cannot send home.

Oh yes you can. This is one of the attitudes that I really despise.

The German people most certainly do have the right to boot anyone out of their country that they want to. The disaster that is the Islamic world doesn't obligate them to anything.

Frankly, I would have much higher standards.

To quote a pop song,
"You don't have to go home,
But you can't stay here"
Tom

 

[Flankerl]

So would it be illegal for a 14 year old in a relationship with a 20 year old to be financially reliant on the 20 year old?

Yes of course.

 

[icehorse]

No, what I was putting forward was that this issue is a world wide issue and that members on this forum that think it doesn't exist in the U.S. should be informed that it does.

Fair enough. But Europe is the canary-in-the-immigration-crisis-coalmine. What's happening in Europe far exceeds what's happening in the U.S., and we in the U.S. should be paying close attention to Europe, because I for one, don't think we should follow in their open borders policies.

 

[Augustus]

There are "migrants", "immigrants", "refugees" and so on. And many people call themselves refugees who are in fact economic opportunists. In any case, host countries should NOT change their laws to accommodate regressive ideas. Other solutions can be found, but not legal backsliding.

Removing fake refugees is a separate question and not relevant.

Would you support placing the girls in a children's home even if it was the opinions of the social worker in charge that this would likely cause them significant psychological harm and place them at risk of suicide? 2 attempted suicides were a cause of the change in policy.

Do you believe you are better placed to make a judgement about the welfare of the girls involved?