Argh! Child Brides now Legal for Muslims in Germany and Denmark

[Augustus]

Oh yes you can. This is one of the attitudes that I really despise.

Not legally you can't. Don't blame me, I didn't create international law.

 

[icehorse]

Removing fake refugees is a separate question and not relevant.

Would you support placing the girls in a children's home even if it was the opinions of the social worker in charge that this would likely cause them significant psychological harm and place them at risk of suicide? 2 attempted suicides were a cause of the change in policy.

Do you believe you are better placed to make a judgement about the welfare of the girls involved?

I believe we can make compassionate, well-informed, case-by-case decisions without changing our laws.

 

[Augustus]

I believe we can make compassionate, well-informed, case-by-case decisions without changing our laws.

That's exactly what they are doing. So problem solved

 

[columbus]

Not legally you can't. Don't blame me, I didn't create international law.

That can be changed.
Or just do what the USA does. Ignore international law when it doesn't suit.
No, I don't think that countries like Algeria and Saudi Arabia and Iran have any say in how European countries run their borders. They won't take the refugees.
That's why the refugees want to go to the west. Because our ethics and culture are so superior. I have no trouble putting some serious cultural restrictions on them.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This article suggests they are trying to tighten the laws but it is of concern.
http://dw.com/en/germany-mulls-tighter-child-marriage-laws/a-19325588

Seems like more absurd Right-wing claims. But what can you expect from Brietbart?

I'm talking about mainstream sources in general. I'll even accept FOX news. If you can't see that Breitbart isn't a good source just from the homepage, then I can't help you.

Breitbart is so Conservative-biased it makes Fox look Moderate. That should be blatantly obvious to anyone who spends a few minutes reading over a few articles.

Should refugees and their social networks be rent asunder when they flee an untenable situation?

They shouldn't be granted special privileges and rights to brake the law just because they are from another land. Not braking up families may be a reasonable compromise, but if they are living in a country that does not allow children to enter into a marriage then outsiders should not expect to be allowed to marry children, nor should they be allowed to. It's a practice that has no place in Western society, or really anywhere for that matter.

You're setting up these two monolithic groups as being in opposition to one another. In practice, these groups are composed of individuals, and individuals of varying backgrounds make up a society. Many societies have incorporated ideals which have been brought in through immigration, be they positive or negative from our perspectives.

In so many regards the two groups are in fundamental opposition. The rights of women are especially a serious concern, where Western women have enjoyed tremendous gains in rights and liberties whereas most of these rights and liberties for women are illegal and non-existent in many Islamic cultures/states. And there is the slippery of slope of if we allow for one special right and privilege for one group, what will they ask for next? Should they be allowed to stone adulterers in the Western world because that's the way things are done back home? I think not!

 

[columbus]

Enforced financial support from who?

The husband.
He can avoid that by leaving the country.
Tom

 

[Augustus]

Because our ethics and culture are so superior.

So you would support a case by case harm reduction strategy as the least worst option? This is what this story is about, nothing else.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So you would support a case by case harm reduction strategy as the least worst option? This is what this story is about, nothing else.

With such a massive influx on immigrants, can they even realistically approach such a thing on a case-by-case basis?

 

[columbus]

So you would support a case by case harm reduction strategy as the least worst option? This is what this story is about, nothing else.

That is what I meant by my first post to @Valjean . Make sure the girls both have access to education and such. And also do as much as possible to see that they understand that things are different in Germany. If her husband says "no, you must stay home and mind the children." the answer is get out of our country. (to the husband)

"Deprogramming" Islamic women is decidedly an option. Because Germany doesn't owe those people asylum from Islamic culture or countries. The immigrants must agree to do things our way or go somewhere else.
Tom

 

[columbus]

With such a massive influx on immigrants, can they even realistically approach such a thing on a case-by-case basis?

Honestly, this is a huge and growing problem.
Doing things the way they have been done in the past is not working and getting worse.
Exit Merkel, Enter Le Pen. Expect a lot of backlash against Muslims that is individually unfair, but culturally quite to be expected. Let the Muslim women insist on burkinis as a right, and find that their communities aren't welcome and generally made uncomfortable.
Etc. Etc.
Tom

 

[Augustus]

With such a massive influx on immigrants, can they even realistically approach such a thing on a case-by-case basis?

The numbers involving underage brides will be pretty small though.

Obviously the situation is complicated and imperfect, but that is what the story is about.

How best to deal with the current situation where existing guidelines may do more harm than good.

 

[columbus]

Let me make this a little more pointed and personal.
I am gay. Islamic culture is notoriously homophobic, while European culture is far less so and improving all the time.
I would have no ethical problem requiring an immigrant to agree in writing in their native language to support gay rights including marriage and adoption.
They don't have to do it. But they also don't get past the border if they don't. Why should gay people agree to foreigners coming in to their country if they don't support gay rights? Let the immigrants go elsewhere if they don't want European culture.
Tom

 

[oldbadger]

Let's not conflate consensual sex between teenagers with forced marriages between a 14 year old girl and an older man. The odds of coercion in the latter case are quite high.

OK.... so tell me what you would do if a married couple sought refuge in your country and the wife was, say 14rs?
What would you do?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Let me make this a little more pointed and personal.
I am gay. Islamic culture is notoriously homophobic, while European culture is far less so and improving all the time.
I would have no ethical problem requiring an immigrant to agree in writing in their native language to support gay rights including marriage and adoption.
They don't have to do it. But they also don't get past the border if they don't. Why should gay people agree to foreigners coming in to their country if they don't support gay rights? Let the immigrants go elsewhere if they don't want European culture.
Tom

I wouldn't say they have to support it, but they have to tolerate it, just like they should be expected to, at minimum, tolerate our other ways and laws they disagree with.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They also shouldn't push for religious-based legislation, which is something that no religion should be doing, especially in the Secular-throughout West and huge parts of the East.

 

[columbus]

OK.... so tell me what you would do if a married couple sought refuge in your country and the wife was, say 14rs?
What would you do?

It depends. How can you possibly think that is a question without a booklength answer?
One answer might be refuse entry.

Do you think foreigners have a right to enter a country with no reservations? Does somebody have a right to enter Germany if the Germans don't want them?
Tom

 

[columbus]

I wouldn't say they have to support it, but they have to tolerate it, just like they should be expected to, at minimum, tolerate our other ways and laws they disagree with.

Why not?
Why not require support? Nobody in Europe is forcing them to come there. Egypt is closer to Syria any way.
If people don't want to emigrate to Germany as the Germans want it, why are the Germans expected to do things that Algeria or Saudi Arabia point blank refuse to do?
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why not?
Why not require support? Nobody in Europe is forcing them to come there. Egypt is closer to Syria any way.
If people don't want to emigrate to Germany as the Germans want it, why are the Germans expected to do things that Algeria or Saudi Arabia point blank refuse to do?
Tom

Forcing someone to at least pretend to support something is a good way to turn them off from becoming a legitimate supporter. However, they should know, upfront, we do things differently, and they can either accept that and get over their culture shock or move on to somewhere else.

 

[columbus]

Forcing someone to at least pretend to support something is a good way to turn them off from becoming a legitimate supporter. However, they should know, upfront, we do things differently, and they can either accept that and get over their culture shock or move on to somewhere else.

I also think that such a contract would be nearly unenforceable. And I don't expect many Muslims to sign it with any honest intentions.
What it would do is twofold. Put people on notice, this is not Algeria or whatever. Immigrants to Germany are required to live by German ethics even if they disagree with them. If you don't like German culture as it is go somewhere else.
It also gives German authorities leverage over the immigrants. Say something homophobic in your mosque and you get deported. You have already agreed to support gay rights. Say one thing that Germans don't like and you're out. Your culture and religion aren't German and so you won't use German freedom to protect them.

This rather reminds me of the Muslims in London using their English freedom of speech to demonstrate against freedom of speech. That kind of Islamic abuse of western culture will be the end of western culture.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This rather reminds me of the Muslims in London using their English freedom of speech to demonstrate against freedom of speech. That kind of Islamic abuse of western culture will be the end of western culture.

I don't think it will be the end of Western culture, but it does run a very high risk of consequences that no one is going to like - except for perhaps the most outspoken against Islam and already desiring violent means to deal with Muslim immigrants and converts.