Argh! Child Brides now Legal for Muslims in Germany and Denmark

[Valjean]

Would you make the same argument for someone who became a slave at an early age?

Slavery is rarely a voluntary, desirable status. If a family with a slave moved to Europe, the slave would automatically attain equal legal status with the family, and could stay or leave as she wished.

In which case, if the "husband" is honorable, he would have the marriage annulled at the border of his new country.

And where does this leave the individuals involved? Wouldn't a working social partnership be valuable in integrating into a new culture?
There are situations where there are no good options. If neither partner is being exploited and both are happy with the situation, might it not be better for all concerned to leave things as they are and let them face the problem of integration as a team?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What is the position if a muslim brings his family to the Usa, including, more than one wife and one of them under 16.

are there not citizens of the Usa that were married younger than that.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Any others on your list? CNN makes the grade? I completely agree that Gatestone has an agenda. I don't know much about the other source. But - once again - the claims stand or fall on their own, regardless of the messenger.

The BBC has been a Tory mouthpiece for years now - and a new Labour mouthpiece before that. It's pretty right-wing.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I know..

Would you be okay with a 14 year old girl being in a intimate relationship with a 21 year old guy?

It hardly matters whether I am happy with the situation, the more important question are they?

there are probably millions of people in such relationships around the world and in all countries. Including the USA.

 

[Kirran]

The title is very alarmist. If the marriage is already in place, I think that blocking people in need from entry on account of it is hardly a humanitarian decision. And it's not like such marriages can be performed in the country. Different countries have different rules regarding recognising foreign marriages. While I personally disagree with this practice of child marriage, think of an Israeli who disapproves of sane-sex marriage protesting his country recognising those performed abroad.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The title is very alarmist. If the marriage is already in place, I think that blocking people in need from entry on account of it is hardly a humanitarian decision. And it's not like such marriages can be performed in the country. Different countries have different rules regarding recognising foreign marriages. While I personally disagree with this practice of child marriage, think of an Israeli who disapproves of sane-sex marriage protesting his country recognising those performed abroad.

Perhaps we should all stick to inSane sex then.

 

[Kirran]

Perhaps we should all stick to inSane sex then.

I can't get away with even the smallest mistake around here!

 

[Valjean]

What is the position if a muslim brings his family to the Usa, including, more than one wife and one of them under 16.

are there not citizens of the Usa that were married younger than that.

Jerry Lee Lewis famously married his 13 y/o girlfriend. As I recall, when this was revealed during a concert tour in England, the couple was hounded out of the country.

Terry makes a good point. If a Muslim with several wives emigrates to a western country, should the family be torn apart?

If a biracial couple in Pennsylvania, USA, in 1966, moved to Virginia (where mixed marriages were illegal), would it have been proper to force a divorce, or imprison them?

If a Syrian couple with a 14 y/o wife moved to Germany and were separated, where would the wife be housed and cared for? How would she handled the reduction in social status from adult wife to child?

If the situation in Syria stabilized and one or both of them moved back, what would their marital status be? Could they be a legally married couple in the middle East while being unmarried individuals in Europe?
What if one of them had married a European. What would their marital status be in the middle East?

How would their families view this forced divorce? How would they view a subsequent marriage to another?

Real life isn't so black-and -white. Laws are made to serve human needs, but there are situations where their application can effect exactly the opposite.

 

[Thanda]

There is a huge grey area between "oh well, they're Muslims" and "send the girls to an orphanage".
How about mandatory counseling and education, with the option of getting out of the marriage with enforced financial support, up until the girl is 21?
If "their culture doesn't do things that way" they can go back to where they find the culture more accommodating. Sorry, but immigrants have no right to do things their way in a new country.
Tom

Enforced financial support from who?

 

[Thanda]

I am not making the wife do anything. I am just making sure that she has the options available to her, and that she knows about them. Just like European girls have from birth.
That's how we do things here in secular western countries and the Muslims who want to come here have to do things our way.
Tom

Do European girls have the option of marrying at 12 years old?

 

[Thanda]

Both Germany and Denmark have recently altered their laws to allow Muslim men with child brides to legally immigrate. Argh!

Are there any cultural values these governments won't compromise on? Do the politicians in these countries have any morals at all? This is truly horrific.

There are two ways of looking at refugees (and consequently at this particular topic of discussion). Either they are a separate people who are kept in a separate (from the rest of the host countries society) place of waiting until their country has stabilized before being returned; or they are people who must be forced immigrants who wish to become a part of the countries they flee to.
In the first scenario the case can be strongly made for the host country to recognize as many of the refugees cultural norms of the refugees as possible, without infringing on the rights on the host country's people. Therefore, for the particular case of child marriages, you would allow these marriages to continue but you would not allow a refugee to marry an underage citizen on the host country and you would not issue marriage licences to refugees if one of the participants is underage.
In the second scenario, where you are assuming that the refugees are in fact immigrants who want to integrate into the host society, then a case can be made for the host country to be much less compromising with the refugees.

I believe there is a compromise that can be struck between these two positions. Refugees can be placed in separate camps where they may continue, largely untroubled with most of their cultural arrangements within limits. Or they may choose to opt into their host country and in doing so commit to living and upholding the laws and ordinances of the host country and do all they have to do to make themselves compliant (including divorce if necessary).

 

[Thanda]

I know..

Would you be okay with a 14 year old girl being in a intimate relationship with a 21 year old guy?

That is as irrelevant as whether I would be okay with a man being intimate with another man.

 

[Kirran]

That is as irrelevant as whether I would be okay with a man being intimate with another man.

It's as irrelevant as whether you'd be OK with two men being intimate would be in a discussion about same-sex marriage.

 

[Augustus]

Both Germany and Denmark have recently altered their laws to allow Muslim men with child brides to legally immigrate. Argh!

It's talking about refugees not normal immigration. Unless they are judged to not be refugees, then the country is more or less obliged to accept them. Having an under age bride by European law doesn't invalidate someone's refugee status.

The question is not about 'legal immigration', but about cohabitation amongst refugees.

Legal immigration would not recognise the underage bride as a legitimate spouse for immigration purposes. The same is true for 2nd/3rd wives.

 

[Kirran]

I dunno man, there's a lot of countries with it at 14 and 15.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#/media/File:Age_of_consent_in_Europe.svg

 

[Aštra’el]

Contrary to what many Americans seem to be indoctrinated into believing, 14-15 years old is not the age of a "child".

 

[Thanda]

It's as irrelevant as whether you'd be OK with two men being intimate would be in a discussion about same-sex marriage.

No it's not. The question this thread raises is whether a country should recognize marriages done in other countries but which would be illegal within their own country. Same-sex marriage is illegal in most countries. The question raised by the OP can just as easily be applied to same-sex marriages. Should their marriages be recognized in countries they have been forced to flee to if those countries have outlawed same-sex marriage?

You then decided to bring intimacy into the mix and I responded in kind by bringing homosexual intimacy into mix - since apparently you believe that the answer to the question in my last paragraph is best found by making reference to how palatable intimacy between the respective partners is.

 

[Thanda]

Contrary to what many Americans seem to be indoctrinated into believing, 14-15 years old is not the age of a "child".

Importantly the term "child" is a social and subjective construct, not a scientific and objective one - the same with marriage and the age of consent.

 

[oldbadger]

Both Germany and Denmark have recently altered their laws to allow Muslim men with child brides to legally immigrate. Argh!

Are there any cultural values these governments won't compromise on? Do the politicians in these countries have any morals at all? This is truly horrific.

We allow child brides and grooms in the UK actually.
With parental permission any 16yr old can marry.
In Denmark the age of consent is 15 yrs.
But for any self-righteous and indignant folks who might object to a 14yrs old wife being forcibly separated from her spouse, or even refused refuge into a safe country because she happens to be married, then they need to face the fact that a % of European girls and boys have experienced sexual intercourse at younger ages than 14 yrs. Let's put our own kids in order before we leave 14yrs old girls out there in danger, refused entry to safe countries.
Yeah?

 

[Kirran]

We allow child brides and grooms in the UK actually.
With parental permission any 16yr old can marry.
In Denmark the age of consent is 15 yrs.
But for any self-righteous and indignant folks who might object to a 14yrs old wife being forcibly separated from her spouse, or even refused refuge into a safe country because she happens to be married, then they need to face the fact that a % of European girls and boys have experienced sexual intercourse at younger ages than 14 yrs. Let's put our own kids in order before we leave 14yrs old girls out there in danger, refused entry to safe countries.
Yeah?

12 year old boy had a baby with a 14 year old girl in the town just over from me a few years ago.