Argument by performance: God Has no Messengers

[sam ex muslim]

It sounds like your argument here is that G-d only spoke to one group of people and that the Jews believe that G-d spoke to them, but can't understand why other nations don't believe that G-d spoke to the Jews.

Correct me if I've misunderstood.

Assuming I haven't, this argument is a straw-man.
We don't find any expectation by G-d that other nations obey any special rules or maintain belief in Him. According to Jewish belief, it is necessary that there be a minimum of people carrying on belief in G-d in the world and we were chosen for that task in the merit of our Patriarchs. The more the merrier sure, but everyone outside of that is free to chose to find their way to G-d or not. Our job is to be the librarians, so that people can find knowledge of G-d, should they want to. That's a universal concept, not a limited one.


It seems like this was written in response to another person, because it's a little difficult to get at how this point relates to me. There acceptance of Sinatic Revelation according to Judaism is based on the idea that the entire nation experienced it and subsequently accepted the Law they received from that event. If you were to compare that with Islam and Mormonism, only Muhammad and Joseph Smith would be required to be Muslim/Mormon and there would be no expectation on anyone who isn't them or doesn't descend from them to be their followers and they would have no business trying to convince anyone of their prophecy.


Ok...


Normative Jewish belief is that prophecy ended with the destruction of the First Temple. Only the prophets who were born before the destruction of the First Temple continued to prophecy until they died, which for some of them meant the beginning of the Second Temple period 70 years later.

I am newbe to forums so I actually do not know how to Quote each paragraph, so I will try my best to quote you in a rightful way.

Part One
(limitation of narration, time, space, target)

I am aware that Judaism is an ethnic religion concern Beni Yisrael like many ancient religions/Spiritual beliefs which revolved around certain ethnicity, Hinduism, Taoism, Shamanism etc. BUT

You still claim that the Creator has spoken to your ancestors at Mount Sinai and you consider yourself a reference to other nations providing they are willing to learn about God.

You are also aware about the religious divisions among your own nation which includes Atheist Jews.

Can you not see that when God spoke to your ancestors thousands years ago, that he made his speech a "victim of Narration". God has slaughter his own words.

You have a nice story told at bedtime and passed on one generation into another. This could explain why :

An outsider (like a Hindu) or an insider (like an atheist jews) finds your story Hard to believe, Why? Because narration is useless and limited, it is just a story told by some people sometime in the past and the Creator should have known that.

The Creator of the Universe is more intelligent than that, so give him some credit. Please stop insulting this supreme being.


Part Two
Now, regarding my example about Mohammed, Are you Aware that Mohammed made the Moon Split in two, which was witness by his tribe in Mecca? And he claimed that Allah will throw the Jews in hell for refusing to follow me.

Are you not afraid of Allah? simple answer No, Why? Because you do not believe in Islamic Narrations, you think they must be Fabrications (limitation of Narration).

Again, if these messages came directly from a lesser deity, then that is fine. Why? Because lesser deities have limitations, but Ein Sof does not have these limitations.

So what happened? Throughout the centuries, great jewish kabbalists, mystics and enlighten beings graduates of prophetic schools (you can call them prophets if you wish) evolved and transformed and gained a great deal of Divine Knowledge, some of which leaked into and mixed with the body of knowledge in Judaism.

Did other nations have their own share of Divine Knowledge? Of course yes. The doors are open for the Sincere ones.

 

[ManSinha]

I am newbe to forums so I actually do not know how to Quote each paragraph, so I will try my best to quote you in a rightful way.

You can select whatever you want to quote - and when you stop selecting you will see a Quote/ Reply pop up right there

Clicking on reply will get you that particular piece you want quoted - the quote function as I recently learned from @Jayhawker Soule is to quote multiple portions of conversations into one reply

 

[PureX]

Wow, That is beautiful. I think you are reading my mind.

Geniuses think alike!

But then so do idiots, now that I think about it. So ...

 

[2ndpillar]

I guess there are people who are happy to live with bed time stories and there are people who strive towards Ein Sof with real experience. What ever makes them happy, I think Divinity is never in hurry.

Maybe you should share your "real experience" with "Ein Sof", the unknowable, according to Baha, another believer in Mohammed. As for "Divinity is never in a hurry", well, try telling that to the people in the time of Noah, or in the time of Jonah. Or for that matter WWI, after which the state of Israel was planted by the British per the Declaration of Balfour, in line with their prophetic festival of Jubilee, and 50 years later with their capture of the Golan Heights and the West Bank. As for Jonah, God's tolerance seems to be to the extent of giving only 3 warnings. As for the tolerance of God's prophets, such as Elijah, an insult might be enough to rouse the wild animals against his detractors. I am not an expert on Muslim doctrine, but apparently the Iranian Muslims think the Mahdi is behind schedule, and that it will be catastrophic for the unbelievers when he comes, however late that might be. While the Jews may say they are knowledgeable concerning God, their prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31:34 and Ezekiel 37, infer that that time is yet in the future, but at that time "they shall all know me". On the other hand, you seem tilted toward the unifying religion of Baha, who apparently profess that God is unknowable, yet you infer experience with the unknowable Ein Sof.

 

[sam ex muslim]

According to a Hadith, God sent 124,000 Prophets. That's arguably a decent number.



The 124,000 Prophets were sent to all corners of the globe.



I can't see how this addresses my point.



I can't see how this addresses my point.



I can't see how this addresses my point.



By no means all Shia are so condemnatory of Sunni and vice versa.



That is all part of the test. The Qur'an is protected from corruption. And Jesus (pbuh) will return in the future to return many to the straight path.



That is why it is a test. And God in Their Mercy sent down a Book protected from corruption (the Qur'an), so that is the Criterion.



John the Baptist (pbuh) was also a Mandaean Prophet.



I'm not sure that is true - not the entire Bible at any rate.



For their changing the Word of God and killing some of their Prophets, they incurred God's Anger. But that doesn't mean that they didn't do a better job of remembering their Messengers and Prophets than other peoples. Even so, there are positive words for Jews in the Qur'an (as for Christians and anyone who believes in God and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds).

So here we go again. I will repeat myself. I am newbe to this forum or any forum, So I can not quote each paragraph. I will try address these points in a rightful way to the best of my abilities.

Part one
124,000 or 1 Billion. It is just claim from your narrated sources. Can not be proven since most of those ethnic polytheistic religions and ancestry spiritualism prevailed the world. The book of the "dead of the Egyptians" and their recordings, the Chinese recordings, the Hindu recording, Celts, Germanic, Vikings where are their messengers?

Is it possible that we can not find recording of 124000 Prophets !! Please do not insult our intelligence. The Burden of Proof of your claim is on your shoulder.

Part Two
Limitations of Narration, examples:

1) Christians claim they witness the Crucifixion of Jesus, His risen after death, they tested his wounds and then he departed them. Yet the Quran contradicts this story and muslims believe this story and the witnesses are fabrications.

2) Jews claim that their sources are authentic and uncorrupted. You said I quote (For their changing the Word of God and killing some of their Prophets, they incurred God's Anger). You Admit they changed the word of God !

3) Shia and Sunni Difference. You said (By no means all Shia are so condemnatory of Sunni and vice versa). It is not a matter of opinion or It is a matter of VAST difference between these 2 Sect belief systems. Shia basic belief system is that they have 12 Imam Appointed by God, not by humans, the 12th Imam Al-Mahdi was born more than 1000 years ago and he is hiding and waiting for God orders to reveal himself and reclaim earth. This is NOTHING like Sunni belief.

Point 1-3 Clearly shows that narrations are not reliable and we humans we can clearly see that. YET you claim that this great CREATOR of this Majestic universe is dependent on such narration ! I do not blame Atheist then for thinking Mark Zugerberg is more intelligent than God.

Part Three

According to Christians, there was no book/revelation upon Jesus, that Bible or Engel or Gospels were the writings of the disciples. Quran got that wrong when it states that a book was revealed upon Jesus. For further discussion you can debate Christians. My point is to show the limitations and weakness in narration.

In addition, Can you explain how the Mandeans made John their messenger when he never left Israel and the fact that Jesus was the actual messenger of the time ? Please do not skip this intentionally.

To be Continue...

 

[sam ex muslim]

Part Four

This is the genealogy of Mohammed up to one of his 13th grandfather Kenanah

Mohammed
Abdullah
1.Abdulmutalib
2.Hashem
3.AbdManaf
4.Qusai
5.Kelab
6.Murrah
7.Kaab
8.Loai: Born at Jesus Christ Period.
9.Ghalib
10.Feher
11.Malik
12.Alnader
13.Kenanah: He named one of his son AbdManat: Slave of Manat (Idol, Female Deity mentioned in the Quran)

To our best estimate up to Kananah these and their tribes were polytheist pagans idol worshippers. Meanwhile at the time of the the 8th Grandfather, Israel had 3 prophets (John, Zakaria and Jesus) while Arabs descendants of Ismael had none till the time of Mohammed.

Now you want to claim The Creator God is doing a great job at delivering messengers?

For me it is clear that prophethood was a Jewish thing and Islam want to claim something that does not belong to them.

the performance of God the the great creator of this Universe and DNA does not match the performance of the Entity that sent Mohammed and other scattered messengers. God is far more intelligent and greater than your imaginations and narrations.

 

[sam ex muslim]

You can select whatever you want to quote - and when you stop selecting you will see a Quote/ Reply pop up right there

View attachment 39134

Clicking on reply will get you that particular piece you want quoted - the quote function as I recently learned from @Jayhawker Soule is to quote multiple portions of conversations into one reply

Thank you. I might try that in the future.

 

[Thief]

THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

and when Moses wanted to know the Name....
the Lord said....
Tell the people....I AM!
and they with understanding will know Whose law this is

I get it

and maybe....most people don't
so, there would be the lack of communication you make note of

It's not that people can't see....when they look up
they just don't ...'see'

 

[sam ex muslim]

and when Moses wanted to know the Name....
the Lord said....
Tell the people....I AM!
and they with understanding will know Whose law this is

I get it

and maybe....most people don't
so, there would be the lack of communication you make note of

It's not that people can't see....when they look up
they just don't ...'see'

Hhmmm I need to meditate on that.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

124,000 or 1 Billion. It is just claim from your narrated sources. Can not be proven since most of those ethnic polytheistic religions and ancestry spiritualism prevailed the world. The book of the "dead of the Egyptians" and their recordings, the Chinese recordings, the Hindu recording, Celts, Germanic, Vikings where are their messengers?

Is it possible that we can not find recording of 124000 Prophets !! Please do not insult our intelligence. The Burden of Proof of your claim is on your shoulder.

My point about the 124,000 sent to every corner of the globe was to say, God's sending of Messengers and Prophets was not so sporadic as you claim or that God was so ignorant of geography.

I am not God, I do not know who were the Messengers and Prophets sent to other peoples. And we are not told such in the Qur'an or the Hadiths.

Point 1-3 Clearly shows that narrations are not reliable and we humans we can clearly see that. YET you claim that this great CREATOR of this Majestic universe is dependent on such narration !

God intended such in order to test the people as to who would strive to adhere to the teachings of their Messengers and Prophets. Time and again, most of them went astray, and time and again God sent more Messengers and Prophets to the people to return people to the straight path, culminating in Muhammad (pbuh) with the Qur'an as the Perfect Criterion to judge between the peoples, protected against corruption.

According to Christians, there was no book/revelation upon Jesus, that Bible or Engel or Gospels were the writings of the disciples. Quran got that wrong when it states that a book was revealed upon Jesus.

Jesus (pbuh) did receive revelation from God, but that revelation is not the same as the Gospels, Jesus' revelation from God is now lost.

In addition, Can you explain how the Mandeans made John their messenger when he never left Israel and the fact that Jesus was the actual messenger of the time ? Please do not skip this intentionally.

I am not God to know why the Mandaeans made John the Baptist (pbuh) their chief Prophet. I was simply stating that it is not just Muslims who view John (pbuh) as a Prophet.

 

[sam ex muslim]

My point about the 124,000 sent to every corner of the globe was to say, God's sending of Messengers and Prophets was not so sporadic as you claim or that God was so ignorant of geography.

I am not God, I do not know who were the Messengers and Prophets sent to other peoples. And we are not told such in the Qur'an or the Hadiths.



God intended such in order to test the people as to who would strive to adhere to the teachings of their Messengers and Prophets. Time and again, most of them went astray, and time and again God sent more Messengers and Prophets to the people to return people to the straight path, culminating in Muhammad (pbuh) with the Qur'an as the Perfect Criterion to judge between the peoples, protected against corruption.



Jesus (pbuh) did receive revelation from God, but that revelation is not the same as the Gospels, Jesus' revelation from God is now lost.



I am not God to know why the Mandaeans made John the Baptist (pbuh) their chief Prophet. I was simply stating that it is not just Muslims who view John (pbuh) as a Prophet.

You said (You do not know and you are not God). That is a sign of being humble. Fair enough I am happy with that response.

 

[sam ex muslim]

I just want to share something interesting. An Iraqi Historian and Archeologist who studies the history of religions, named Khazaal Al-Majedi published few interesting books on the origin of religions and Ancient Hebrew Prophets. Some of the interesting observations he made are like that:

Human Spirituality started with Magic and Shamanism attempting to communicate with powers of the universe and spirits. This led to the development of polytheism and later to Monotheism. When monotheism took over the Middle-east and other parts of the world, the Divine Wisdom and life of mystics, priests and magicians were under persecution. So they hide themselves underneath religious garments. They hid their knowledge under the veil of dogmatic beliefs they shared their knowledge in symbolisms and oral traditions. They are called Kabbalists in Judaism, Rosicrucians in Christianity, Sufists in Sunni muslims and Irafne in Shia muslims.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I think WE want to know (God). But that doesn't means God wants us to know (God). I would presume if God did, we already would.

Instead, I think we are left 'unknowing' so that we would be free to choose our own beliefs and desires, and thereby create ourselves.

I believe God first wants us to know and this is the reason we want to know. God's word is planted in our soil. But for now not all want to know. Not all seek, ask, knock on the door. I think intuitively we already know there is something. Maybe we are just not patient and united enough yet. Maybe some day all will know God directly as prophecies promise and this kingdom is allready growing from small beginnings as gospels teach.

I don't think we can compare creation vs message performance yet because it took billions of years of evolution for human to emerge and human is only a short time on this planet.

 

[Koldo]

I am newbe to forums so I actually do not know how to Quote each paragraph, so I will try my best to quote you in a rightful way.

I will show you how I do it, but swap the ( and ) for [ and ].

I click to reply on your post. And this is how it shows up for me:

(QUOTE="sam ex muslim, post: 6623764, member: 68807")I am newbe to forums so I actually do not know how to Quote each paragraph, so I will try my best to quote you in a rightful way.


(/QUOTE)

If i want to quote your text in multiple parts I need to enclose your sentences with the (QUOTE) tags. This is how I do it:


(QUOTE="sam ex muslim, post: 6623764, member: 68807")I am newbe to forums so I actually do not know how to Quote each paragraph,(/QUOTE)

(QUOTE="sam ex muslim, post: 6623764, member: 68807")so I will try my best to quote you in a rightful way.(/QUOTE)

This will show up as two different quotes. And you can answer them separately by inserting your text under each quote. Got it?

Here is my example put into practice:

I am newbe to forums so I actually do not know how to Quote each paragraph,

Example text.

so I will try my best to quote you in a rightful way.

Second example text.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Human Spirituality started with Magic and Shamanism attempting to communicate with powers of the universe and spirits. This led to the development of polytheism and later to Monotheism. When monotheism took over the Middle-east and other parts of the world, the Divine Wisdom and life of mystics, priests and magicians were under persecution. So they hide themselves underneath religious garments. They hid their knowledge under the veil of dogmatic beliefs they shared their knowledge in symbolisms and oral traditions. They are called Kabbalists in Judaism, Rosicrucians in Christianity, Sufists in Sunni muslims and Irafne in Shia muslims.

Mysticism can be seen as a more mature stage/upgrade of religion. Karl Rahner said: "The Christian of the future will be a mystic or he will not exist at all."

 

[Trailblazer]

Good, let me see if I can make it interesting.

Now, let me see if I can make this even more interesting.

Firstly,
I think muslims are trying to mute the voice of Bahaai people since its beginning which is not fair, but I am not surprised. So I kindly request from your people to speak up and take your position among the Abrahamic religions. An example is Wikipedia, why I can not find anything on Bahai here Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia

I agree that 'my people' need to speak up more than they do but they tend to be involved with their own activities, so the word does not get out as much as it should, Imo. On that Wikipedia site, mention was made under the heading is Other Abrahamic religions, but it was not very comprehensive. If you Google Baha'i Faith, the first website that comes up is the official website and it is very comprehensive: https://www.bahai.org/.
That website is very detailed, but this website I recently discovered is briefer and very accurate and covers the main things one would want to know http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/bahai/

Secondly,
Bahai religion assumes that the messengers/prophethood was not sealed by Mohammed. While this contradicts the teaching of Islam, it make better logic than Islam, Why? simply because if we assume there must be messengers from God and knowing that there is an ongoing human progress and evolution, then this makes a newer revelation a necessity to keep on par with such progress.

I certainly believe so, and that is 'one reason' I became a Baha'i. I could never believe in any religion that touts itself as 'the only true religion' or 'the only way to God' for all time. That makes no sense at all that God would reveal only one true religion or have only one path to God for all time. It makes no sense unless you are a member of one of those religions.

Thirdly,
Just look around you, what you see? There is not enough divine intervention to spread the message of Bahai-Allah, minority of people witness his message, which was more universal than the previous religions. Get a pen and paper and be honest with yourself, how would you grade God out of (10), (0) being the lowest mark for his 1) Majesty in Creation 2) Majesty in delivering messengers. Then compare both grades, if they match then good for you. If not then it is likely that Abrahamic religions are Man-made and we need better ways to communicate with this GOD.

Hold onto your hat, because I have about six years of experience explaining this to an atheist on other forums.
Why would you expect God to be involved in spreading the message of Baha'u'llah? As I told my atheist friend, over and over and over and over again, God has no part in spreading the message and neither does the Messenger. The only job God gave to Baha'u'llah to do was to complete His mission on earth, which included His proclamation to the kings and rulers and the religious leaders of the earth, to organize a small community and garner a few followers, and write scriptures. Baha'u'llah died in 1892 and after that the responsibility of delivering the message was squarely in the hands of the Baha'is. That they did, and the Baha'i Faith spread to over 250 countries and territories in the world during the first century. Moreover, the Baha's have met or exceeded every goal ever set forth by the administration. I would hardly call that a failure.

Fourthly,
If we assume that God wants to communicate with us, it must be in a way as great as his creation!

What do you think that way would be, if not through Messengers?

Maybe we need to step down, put away our differences and revisit our understanding about the nature of God instead of projecting our past understanding and beliefs. Seeking spiritual experience with a universal Divine force through self realization and perfecting ourselves which could take more than one life time. Such subjective experiences even those reported by enlightened beings are meaningless if we do not experience that individually.

I definitely agree that we need to step down, put away our differences and revisit our understanding about the nature of God instead of projecting our past understanding and beliefs. I also agree that we should seek spiritual experience with a universal Divine force through self realization and perfecting ourselves. Of course, both of these are important Baha'i teachings.

I do not believe we have more than one lifetime in this world. I believe we have only one chance to become who we will become as spiritual beings, and that is the purpose of this life. I believe we will continue to grow spiritually for all of eternity in the spiritual world, but we will no longer have free will so we won't have the same kind of opportunities for spiritual growth that we have in this life.

 

[Aman Uensis]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

I completely agree with the essence of your statement. There is nothing that can tell us more about a creator than their creation/s. Many scriptures will focus on humanity as a basis for understanding the nature of God, to the exclusion of all other things in this universe, and in this process will inevitably creep in some measure of human bias and hypocrisy.

Ancient texts referring to God and religion are treated as if their sacrosanctness must be passed on throughout the ages and interpreted for the present whereas writings that concern anything else about a dead civilization remain just that - dead. In the past. A footnote in history.

But I think this is because it is much easier to interpret the words of man than it is to interpret the grand picture that is existence as a whole. As human beings we already have a basis from which to begin our search if we limit it to the writings of other human beings. We have no such key to interpreting the wonders of the universe as they may pertain to a God-like figure. It is much preferable to chase unicorns, analyzing and memorizing obscure texts, rather than to see the extraordinary within the ordinary right before our very eyes.

 

[Muffled]

I believe those arguments appear specious to me. I received enough information to be saved. The information is there for everyone..

 

[Muffled]

Dictionaries are far better then holy books. Experience too. I have a book of virtues where the author examines each word of good character. If I want true words of good report, I certainly don't need them mingled with myth presented as literal history.

The idea of studying holy books for the salvation of my soul never sat right with me neither. In depth study just to get the faith contrivance exactly right so that I can consider myself a true believer. Not practical, or plain enough to be the truth.

Interpretations galore. Denominations, sects, and no simplicity in the teachings.

What is so simple about Jesus that even a child can understand it?

I have to Read the book and try to corroborate the book with outside evidence all for the saving of my soul.
Or to take the reading of a holy book as sole absolute evidence for its truth. That's not even close to being reasonable.



Where's the sanity in this? I don't see any.

I believe it is simple. Jesus saves from sin. It is easily tested by asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. Of course htat means you have to be willing to give up your sins, aye there's the rub.

 

[Muffled]

Are you referring to Mohammed ? Because I am sure he wants your head to be chopped off for not following him. If not Mohammed then which prophets are you talking about ? Is your definition of prophet enlightened beings or the Abrahamic religion types ?

I believe the idea that Mohammed wants your head chopped off to be the myths of men not the word of God.