Argument - proving Islam through magic (probabilistic argument)

[KWED]

His argument for the Quran being true or what ever word you wish to use is that "because sorcery is stopping him from understanding the Quran, its true".

You know Scoop. Lets say his argument is false or fallacious, still why would that make him dishonest?

The dishonesty is in continually begging the question that the Quran is true and Allah exists, despite having had the problem pointed out to him many, many times.
Of course, the other possibility is that he is simply incapable of understanding anything that challenges his established conclusions.
Not sure which is worse.

 

[KWED]

Magic would be proven by 4 and 7.

How?
All you do in 4 & 7 is claim that there is magic. You have not presented any evidence or argument to support the existence of magic.

 

[KWED]

Where is the circular reasoning? This is the main reason I came back to Islam personally, is witnessing dark magic preventing people from understanding the Quran.

How do you know it was "dark magic"?
How do you know that following Islam isn't Satan's dark magic turning you away from Christianity? Or any other combination of irrational beliefs?

 

[KWED]

There is evidence (a lot) for 4 though, that magic is the only explanation to misunderstanding of many verses in Quran and decontextualization happens due to super natural reasons in many cases (not all, just many).

Nope. You are question begging again.
You are assuming that the Quran is true and there is only one correct way to understand it. But perhaps your interpretation is wrong and someone else's is right? Perhaps it was written by men, not god.
You are only basing your claim on belief and confirmation bias.

 

[Link]

Nope. You are question begging again.
You are assuming that the Quran is true and there is only one correct way to understand it. But perhaps your interpretation is wrong and someone else's is right? Perhaps it was written by men, not god.
You are only basing your claim on belief and confirmation bias.

I do believe Quran is true and that there many reflections to gain from it, if the reflection is not from God, it would contradict other parts of Quran while if the reflection is from God, it will be proven to the person. As for meaning yes there is only one true meaning but there is in fact, many layers of meaning and reflection. But all of them must be based on clear signs.

However in this argument, we don't assume any of this. It's rather, given how language works, it's insanely supernatural the decontextualization that occurs to Quran. It doesn't assume there is one true interpretation possible, but rather, it's insane how the clearest of all recitations by language rules, no one sees as even possible (except a few). Usually if the possibility is seen, it will gain preference if there person is sincere to Quran, however, it is the case even sincere people to Quran are blind to the possibility, not because they don't want to see the possibility nor is that possibility not obvious by language rules, but something else is blocking (knots/locks blown upon) them from seeing.

 

[Link]

How?
All you do in 4 & 7 is claim that there is magic. You have not presented any evidence or argument to support the existence of magic.

Yes, I haven't as I myself said this.
I will be providing evidence for it, and said this is necessary to give my argument meat and bone.

However 4 would prove the existence in magic in theory if true. 7 too, but I will explain why later.

 

[Link]

Why does Allah allow Iblis to blind people to the Quran with his sorcery? Isn't Allah supposed to preserve and protect it?
The options are...
A) he wants people to be blinded by Iblis' sorcery
or
B) he doesn't care if they are blinded by Iblis' sorcery
or
B) he can't stop Iblis casting sorcery on the Quran.

Which do you think it is?

This itself has a long explanation. I will try to keep it short and so you might have a lot of follow up questions. But it's that Iblis put God in a hard spot, he could've killed him and made a lesson out of him, then no Angel would have fallen to status of a devil nor a human disobey, but all out of fear of God with no love component, or if there is a love component it's minimal.

The reason why God has hidden the day of judgment is so he can try us with respect to love and respecting him, he allowed it to be that we can even deny his existence if we choose. If he wanted to, he could've manifested the signs from start to now till forever, in the form he will on the day of judgment and forced everyone to the truth like he will on the day of judgment. But the reward will be definitely meaningless and our relationship to God not great, he lacks trust in us and us in ourselves with respect to him (in this hypothetical world, there is no trust between God and anyone).

This world is an error handling world, where God is trying to restore humans back to himself and establish them firmly in the hereafter.

The trial is error handling back up plan but the original plan was no one disobeys God and even they do, they repent. When Adam (a) doubted, so did many souls swerve, Adam (a) repented and turned back, but not everyone did and so the world had to fall and become a trial of deeds.

Adam (a) remained a chosen one because he repented, but Iblis proved nothing of himself but lies to himself and others disgracing him till this day because he is stubborn to God's signs.

 

[Link]

How do you know it was "dark magic"?
How do you know that following Islam isn't Satan's dark magic turning you away from Christianity? Or any other combination of irrational beliefs?

First we establish there is magic (premise 4). Then why it's evil and dark, I made other premises. Why it would prove Islam true, I made other premises.

But let's investigate 4 and 7.

 

[KWED]

I do believe Quran is true and that there many reflections to gain from it,

Yep. Still no attempt to back up your claim with anything substantial.

if the reflection is not from God, it would contradict other parts of Quran

Ok, so any book that is not internally contradictory is from god.
And the Quran does contradict itself. An easy one is "There is no compulsion in religion" vs "worship me or I will torture you horribly".

while if the reflection is from God, it will be proven to the person.

How? By personal belief?

As for meaning yes there is only one true meaning but there is in fact, many layers of meaning and reflection. But all of them must be based on clear signs.

How do you know your version of its meaning its the one true one? If the signs are clear, why does almost everyone disagree with you?

However in this argument, we don't assume any of this.

Your argument is entirely based on assumption.

It's rather, given how language works, it's insanely supernatural the decontextualization that occurs to Quran.

WTF are you on about?
Are you claiming that people can only misinterpret the Quran because of dark magic? OK, let's assume that is true (which it isn't) - how do you know that you aren't under the influence of dark magic and you are misinterpreting it? It would explain why most people, including Muslims, disagree with you.

It doesn't assume there is one true interpretation possible, but rather, it's insane how the clearest of all recitations by language rules, no one sees as even possible (except a few). Usually if the possibility is seen, it will gain preference if there person is sincere to Quran, however, it is the case even sincere people to Quran are blind to the possibility, not because they don't want to see the possibility nor is that possibility not obvious by language rules, but something else is blocking (knots/locks blown upon) them from seeing.

This is just meaningless babble.
Given then worrying amount of such stuff you post on here, one has to wonder if everything is ok at home?

 

[KWED]

Yes, I haven't as I myself said this.
I will be providing evidence for it, and said this is necessary to give my argument meat and bone.

You have done this before - made wild claims and then admitted you presented no proof but would provide it later. And failed to do so.
Why not just present your evidence with your original argument? Because you don't have any, that's why.

However 4 would prove the existence in magic in theory if true.

**** me, did you just say "If my claim was true, it would be true"?
This has got to be a joke. No one can be that, erm, "challenged".

 

[KWED]

First we establish there is magic (premise 4). Then why it's evil and dark, I made other premises. Why it would prove Islam true, I made other premises.

 

[Link]

KWED, because my way to first establish an argument is valid (different then sound), see what premises remain controversial (and already know 4 and 7 has not been substantiated in this thread), and then seek out to prove the controversial premises or counter a counter argument presented.

 

[KWED]

But it's that Iblis put God in a hard spot, he could've killed him and made a lesson out of him, then no Angel would have fallen to status of a devil nor a human disobey, but all out of fear of God with no love component, or if there is a love component it's minimal.

That doesn't explain why Allah doesn't simply stop Iblis from casting dark magic. Remember that Allah can do anything and knows everything so there are no "hard spots" for him.
He doesn't have to kill Iblis, he just has to take away his dark magic powers. Why doesn't he do that?

The reason why God has hidden the day of judgment is so he can try us with respect to love and respecting him, he allowed it to be that we can even deny his existence if we choose. If he wanted to, he could've manifested the signs from start to now till forever, in the form he will on the day of judgment and forced everyone to the truth like he will on the day of judgment. But the reward will be definitely meaningless and our relationship to God not great, he lacks trust in us and us in ourselves with respect to him (in this hypothetical world, there is no trust between God and anyone).

Right.
So Allah created mankind only so that we would worship him.
He then deliberately hides his existence so most people won't worship him.
He can make his existence clear to us all and save us from the hell he invented for no reason, but choses not to, even though he will do later, when it is too late.
He only wants people in heaven who are gullible idiots.

This world is an error handling world, where God is trying to restore humans back to himself and establish them firmly in the hereafter.

The trial is error handling back up plan but the original plan was no one disobeys God and even they do, they repent. When Adam (a) doubted, so did many souls swerve, Adam (a) repented and turned back, but not everyone did and so the world had to fall and become a trial of deeds.

Adam (a) remained a chosen one because he repented, but Iblis proved nothing of himself but lies to himself and others disgracing him till this day because he is stubborn to God's signs.

Do you have a random text generator for this stuff?

 

[Link]

That doesn't explain why Allah doesn't simply stop Iblis from casting dark magic. Remember that Allah can do anything and knows everything so there are no "hard spots" for him.
He doesn't have to kill Iblis, he just has to take away his dark magic powers. Why doesn't he do that?

Iblis believes till this day (deceiving himself) that he is correct. Should God stop everyone from calling to incorrect ideas? And magic is allowed from Iblis for many reasons among them, when Iblis disbelieved, he accused the veils of light of deceiving Angels and universe and sarcastically addressed their Lord (while not believing in Him) that he would lead astray all servants except the sincerely devoted to him, and in the expression, he means the sincerely devoted to God are fools. And this is what he deceived himself when he took his "unique" stance that all Angels were fools except himself. Now his unique stance he had has become a norm of Jinn and humans, to become arrogant and follow their own views rather then rely on God's guidance. God took Iblis statement and turned around and said in fact, anyone who follows Iblis will go to one of seven gates of hell, and he will not be able to overcome his sincere worshipers and that in fact is a straight path to God. We can start out as fools, as long as we worship God above all else, and don't equate with God, we will make it back to God, as did Adam (a) after swerving.

God allows freedom for creation. If he forces people not to lead astray, then everyone would forcefully submit. The Magic is part of the abilities of Iblis and other Jinn as well all humans have magical abilities or psychic abilities whether they recognize it or not.

Iblis believes himself to be good, he thinks of Angels and the chosen ones as deceivers or deceived, and thinks he is correct.

Allah (swt) could've jailed him or took away his ability, but again, this would make a lesson, and no would lead anyone astray because God would just take away your abilities or jail you. Then goodness and our relationship to God would be meaningless because there is only one possible outcome and that would be compulsion from God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Magic would be proven by 4 and 7.

So in your view, who is performing the Majic?

 

[Link]

So in your view, who is performing the Majic?

Many Jinn, many humans, the latter called Magog, while Gog Qareen is Satan himself, the Abu Lahab of our time, Magog follow him and are all sorcerers. The sorcery calls back to Gog and Gog calls to Satan and his Qareen is Satan.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Many Jinn, many humans, the latter called Magog, while Gog Qareen is Satan himself, the Abu Lahab of our time, Magog follow him and are all sorcerers. The sorcery calls back to Gog and Gog calls to Satan and his Qareen is Satan.

Are these mentioned as Mutishabihat, or Muhkamaat of the Quran? How can it be known?

 

[Link]

Are these mentioned as Mutishabihat, or Muhkamaat of the Quran? How can it be known?

Clear signs from Quran are to be followed, mutashibihat are to left alone till clarified by clear signs from Quran.

 

[KWED]

Iblis believes till this day (deceiving himself) that he is correct. Should God stop everyone from calling to incorrect ideas? And magic is allowed from Iblis for many reasons among them, when Iblis disbelieved, he accused the veils of light of deceiving Angels and universe and sarcastically addressed their Lord (while not believing in Him) that he would lead astray all servants except the sincerely devoted to him, and in the expression, he means the sincerely devoted to God are fools. And this is what he deceived himself when he took his "unique" stance that all Angels were fools except himself. Now his unique stance he had has become a norm of Jinn and humans, to become arrogant and follow their own views rather then rely on God's guidance. God took Iblis statement and turned around and said in fact, anyone who follows Iblis will go to one of seven gates of hell, and he will not be able to overcome his sincere worshipers and that in fact is a straight path to God. We can start out as fools, as long as we worship God above all else, and don't equate with God, we will make it back to God, as did Adam (a) after swerving.

God allows freedom for creation. If he forces people not to lead astray, then everyone would forcefully submit. The Magic is part of the abilities of Iblis and other Jinn as well all humans have magical abilities or psychic abilities whether they recognize it or not.

Iblis believes himself to be good, he thinks of Angels and the chosen ones as deceivers or deceived, and thinks he is correct.

Allah (swt) could've jailed him or took away his ability, but again, this would make a lesson, and no would lead anyone astray because God would just take away your abilities or jail you. Then goodness and our relationship to God would be meaningless because there is only one possible outcome and that would be compulsion from God.

But Allah does interfere in other people's affairs. He says so many times in the Quran. He even admits that he deliberately misguides people and prevents them from seeing the truth.

TBH, I get the feeling you just make this stuff up as you go along.

Iblis believes himself to be good,

How do you know he isn't? You only have Allah's word for it, and he could be lying. Happens all the time.

 

[F1fan]

Where is the circular reasoning? This is the main reason I came back to Islam personally, is witnessing dark magic preventing people from understanding the Quran.

So I take it YOU believe you understand the Quran, yes?

And when those of us unconvinced your arguments and claims are valid, nor agree with your understanding of the Quran, you think dark magic is affecting us?

Have you considered that we are not assigning meaning to the Quran or the beliefs of Islam so we can examine it all a bit more objectively than believers?