Argument - proving Islam through magic (probabilistic argument)

[KWED]

KWED, because my way to first establish an argument is valid (different then sound), see what premises remain controversial (and already know 4 and 7 has not been substantiated in this thread), and then seek out to prove the controversial premises or counter a counter argument presented.

But your method is not valid or sound because you make a priori assumptions and then fail to support them. You also fail to consider the logical conclusions if your premises are false, you simply ignore them.

Presenting unsupported assertions and then saying you will support them later is exactly the same as simply refusing to support them. Which is basically what you are doing.

 

[KWED]

Clear signs from Quran are to be followed, mutashibihat are to left alone till clarified by clear signs from Quran.

Hitchens wept! You couldn't get any more circular than that!
Every post you make seems to undermine your argument further - if that were possible!

 

[KWED]

Many Jinn, many humans, the latter called Magog, while Gog Qareen is Satan himself, the Abu Lahab of our time, Magog follow him and are all sorcerers. The sorcery calls back to Gog and Gog calls to Satan and his Qareen is Satan.

As you have raised the issue of Gog and Magog - can you explain where the massive wall built of iron and copper, stretching between two mountain peaks is?
We have mapped the entire surface of the earth in some detail so it will have shown up. Could you give me a map reference please?

If we cannot find such a construction, it is another error in the Quran
And as Allah said, if we can find an error in the Quran, it is not from god.

 

[Link]

As you have raised the issue of Gog and Magog - can you explain where the massive wall built of iron and copper, stretching between two mountain peaks is?
We have mapped the entire surface of the earth in some detail so it will have shown up. Could you give me a map reference please?

If we cannot find such a construction, it is another error in the Quran
And as Allah said, if we can find an error in the Quran, it is not from god.

You have a lot of misconceptions. I can't clear them all. I solve one for you, another comes up, maybe learn to solve some yourself?

 

[F1fan]

But your method is not valid or sound because you make a priori assumptions and then fail to support them. You also fail to consider the logical conclusions if your premises are false, you simply ignore them.

Presenting unsupported assertions and then saying you will support them later is exactly the same as simply refusing to support them. Which is basically what you are doing.

It's a common problem that we observe with theists. They don't seem self-aware enough to understand that they have adopted a set of beliefs, and treat them as factual.

"I believe it's true, so how can I possible be wrong?"

 

[Link]

But your method is not valid or sound because you make a priori assumptions and then fail to support them. You also fail to consider the logical conclusions if your premises are false, you simply ignore them.

Presenting unsupported assertions and then saying you will support them later is exactly the same as simply refusing to support them. Which is basically what you are doing.

I've made a thread before where I started with premise 4 and evidence for it. A lot people weren't interested maybe I was a nobody back then or something.

But you are right in that I should get on top of it and present the evidence for 4.

 

[F1fan]

You have a lot of misconceptions. I can't clear them all. I solve one for you, another comes up, maybe learn to solve some yourself?

But this is your set of claims and your argument. If you have truth then it is up to you to be concise, clear, and comprehensible to others. You fail in a lot of these and them blame others for 'not getting it'.

You post with an obligation to make your views comprehensible to others.

 

[Link]

But this is your set of claims and your argument. If you have truth then it is up to you to be concise, clear, and comprehensible to others. You fail in a lot of these and them blame others for 'not getting it'.

You post with an obligation to make your views comprehensible to others.

I was addressing his take why God would allow Iblis free reign and usage of magic in misguiding people. Then I realized he goes from one misconception to another, it's too much for me to deal with. He needs to learn to solve some himself.

 

[F1fan]

I've made a thread before where I started with premise 4 and evidence for it. A lot people weren't interested maybe I was a nobody back then or something.

You have a bad habit of assuming your beliefs are accepted as fact. You don't seem on top of your beliefs well enough to realize what is and isn't factual. That's on you, your failure.

But you are right in that I should get on top of it and present the evidence for 4.

Make sure the evidence is objective, requires no special assumptions and interpretations, and is available to ordinary senses.

 

[Link]

Here is a thread about premise 4: Evidence of magic upon the Quran. | Religious Forums

 

[KWED]

You have a lot of misconceptions. I can't clear them all. I solve one for you, another comes up, maybe learn to solve some yourself?

IOW, "You keep asking questions that I have no response to, so please stop asking them".
Brilliant!

But anyway, you have no idea why this enormous metal wall that is described in the Quran doesn't actually exist.
Didn't think you would. It is ancient myth that has no basis in reality. You simply accept it as fact by default. Evidence and rational argument are irrelevant.
But we had already established this.

 

[KWED]

I've made a thread before where I started with premise 4 and evidence for it. A lot people weren't interested maybe I was a nobody back then or something.

But you are right in that I should get on top of it and present the evidence for 4.

I'll say this again.
Claiming that there is evidence for your claims "somewhere else" is meaningless. If you can't support your claim when are where you make it, it can be dismissed.

"I have evidence that I am innocent, your honour, but I can't show it to you now. Find me innocent and let me go, and I will send it to you later".

 

[Link]

IOW, "You keep asking questions that I have no response to, so please stop asking them".
Brilliant!

But anyway, you have no idea why this enormous metal wall that is described in the Quran doesn't actually exist.
Didn't think you would. It is ancient myth that has no basis in reality. You simply accept it as fact by default. Evidence and rational argument are irrelevant.
But we had already established this.

Gog and Magog have been on earth before Dul-Kifl revealed them as the enemies who sabotaged Bani-Israel to misguidance is the main thing you have to get from that. They were in a time way before even Moses and so the wall is just a historical wall, it's gone now. The hadiths that talk about monster like humans trying to break through it, was, created by Gog and Magog themselves to blind people to what Quran revealed about Abu Lahab/Gog/Pharaoh/Dajjal of the time and The Jibt followers and group (magog).

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, these people now have taken over the world.

 

[Link]

And every high place is not about mountains or skies, Gog and Magog will be dethroned from every high position of influence is what the Quran is saying.

 

[Link]

There I did some problem solving for you, now, you should try to solve some as homework yourself.

 

[KWED]

I was addressing his take why God would allow Iblis free reign and usage of magic in misguiding people. Then I realized he goes from one misconception to another, it's too much for me to deal with. He needs to learn to solve some himself.

No, it's like this...
1. You make an unsupported claim or flawed argument.
2. I point out the flaw.
3. You respond with some more unsupported claims, leaving the initial one unaddressed.
4. I point out the flaw in your new claim. So you now have 2 problems that need to be addressed.
5. Repeat 3 & 4

Addressing the Iblis issue...
1. Allah created mankind only to worship him.
2. Allah interferes in the lives of others to punish or reward, guide or misguide, etc.
3. Allah does not like dark magic or disbelievers.
4. Allah said he will preserve and protect the Quran.
5. Iblis uses dark magic to corrupt the Quran and trick people away from Allah.
6. Allah can stop Iblis doing this but chooses not to.
7. Allah knows he will torture the people Iblis tricks.

1-5 make 6 & 7 irrational and immoral.

 

[KWED]

Make sure the evidence is objective, requires no special assumptions and interpretations, and is available to ordinary senses.

Yeah, like that's gonna happen!

 

[KWED]

And every high place is not about mountains or skies, Gog and Magog will be dethroned from every high position of influence is what the Quran is saying.

What are you on about?
I asked you where the massive iron and copper wall between two mountains, that is explicitly described in the Quran, is.

 

[KWED]

There I did some problem solving for you, now, you should try to solve some as homework yourself.

Are you high?

 

[F1fan]

Gog and Magog have been on earth before Dul-Kifl revealed them as the enemies who sabotaged Bani-Israel to misguidance is the main thing you have to get from that. They were in a time way before even Moses and so the wall is just a historical wall, it's gone now. The hadiths that talk about monster like humans trying to break through it, was, created by Gog and Magog themselves to blind people to what Quran revealed about Abu Lahab/Gog/Pharaoh/Dajjal of the time and The Jibt followers and group (magog).

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, these people now have taken over the world.

I'm not convinced.