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Arguments for the existance of God that don't fall into the "God of the Gaps."
- Thread starter leibowde84
- Start date
leibowde84
Veteran Member
It certainly is. I agree completely. But, was that just a random thought, or does it work into this thread somehow?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
1. People who are not Christian and come from different communities, if they seek truth, will find God. That was Jesus's specific teaching.
2. You are not understanding my question. What proof would you accept? You said scripture and etc. aren't enough. What proof do you seek?
3. The question of existence is certainly worth exploring in terms of we both ought to admit that when it comes down to it, we believe we exist because we are self-aware. I accept that most people are self-aware of promptings from God and most people say God is self-evident as someone who exists.
4. There is no "concrete evidence" of the gospels being written by eyewitnesses? Didn't the author of Luke say he carefully compiled evidence for Luke/Acts speaking to eyewitnesses? You are saying you don't accept any textual evidence. You are also saying you don't accept any prophetical evidence as Jesus fulfilled numerous prophecies. For example, both testaments say the Jewish Messiah will receive worship among peoples worldwide. Jesus is the sole Jewish person worshipped worldwide.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
1. Again, I know what the Bible claims Jesus taught. But, my issue is that it doesn't make sense or play out in the real world. In situations where a child has no opportunity to embrace or even really learn about Jesus or Christianity, how will they be regarded? In other words, there are certainly people who "find God" but do not believe that Jesus was devine. How can you explain this.
2. Writings from Jesus; Historical accounts of Jesus' actions written by unbiased (non-Christian) sources that match up with the accounts of the Gospels; Evidence as to who actually wrote each Gospel and why they felt that they were able to do so; Roman accounts that match the Gospels written by non-Christian sources; etc. Keep in mind that I am a believer in much of what the Gospels claim. But, my belief and the strength of my beliefs in no way contradict the FACT that the Gospels might be inaccurate or fabricated in a large degree.
3. The fact that "most people say that God is self-evident" can easily be explained through psychology. We feel comfort in things like life after death, an approachable God, a God that loves us as his creation, etc. We are wired to believe in God, but because of reason and logic developments, we are unable to accept this as fact.
4. The passage you are referring to in Luke is a far stretch from claiming to get first hand accounts from eyewitnesses. Here is the passage which merely claims that the stories they have heard passed orally surely came from eyewitnesses AT SOME POINT. That says absolutely nothing about a claim that the author of Luke spoke directly to eye-witnesses.
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; (Luke 1:1-2 KJV)
... and then there's people like me: I went to church for years, read the Bible, and gave Christianity as good a chance as I knew how, but I never figured out a way to believe any of it.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Thats your fault, not Jesus'. Lol.
Blastcat
Active Member
Hi there.. You are not going to allow personal experience, scripture, faith or the god of the gaps argument. ( the argument from ignorance ).. well, that doesn't leave the theist much left, to be fair.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I was hoping to be surprised, but all I got were snarky comments about how I should just take people's word for subjective experience. Not very satisfied.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
unless you consider what those things are based on; observation, logical deduction, probability, predictive ability- but it is ultimately personal, acknowledging personal faith in our beliefs is important for atheists and theists alike
leibowde84
Veteran Member
When only one person sees it = unreliable
When many people see it the same way = more dependable.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
and how many see God v atheism?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I think it's pretty low, considering that, obviously, they would need to see the same thing at the same time. An experience is subjective unless someone else is there, without determinative bias, seeing the same thing.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
so more people 'see' God than they 'see' a spontaneous naturalistic origins for the universe, but it doesn't count because they are biased in your subjective opinion?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
No, because they haven't "seen" anything. That is merely a world-view. I was talking about specific instances of evidence for the supernatural witnessed by multiple individuals. We don't know an orange exists just because we see it. We know it exists when we see someone else witnessing it. I am speaking only to specific occurences which are counted as evidence even though they are completely subjective.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
With a miracle, for example, more multiple sources seeing the same thing and describing it accurately is stronger (not absolute) evidence than merely a single person making a claim about seeing something that he/she may or may not be lying about, or, further, might have been simply a hallucination.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I mean "see" as in witness first hand. The literal meaning of the word.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
so what is more valuable evidence, more convincing to you, hearing 100 people claim they have seen Bigfoot... or seeing it yourself, firsthand?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Seeing it myself might convince me, but I wouldn't think it would convince any other intelligent person, unless they saw it with me. Subjective evidence only goes so far as it being witnessed by another person.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
exactly my original point then, which was just that ultimately our own personal experience is the most important in forming our beliefs- the most convincing evidence of anything we can ever have.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
That is not true. The most reliable evidence are are those experiences when they are also witnessed by multiple other people. If I saw Bigfoot alone, my first thought would be that I was seeing things ... an extremely common occurance for everyone.