Argumentum ad populum

[tas8831]

Again from the above science.gov site:

Cause of Cambrian Explosion - Terrestrial or Cosmic?

PubMed

Steele, Edward J; Al-Mufti, Shirwan; Augustyn, Kenneth A; Chandrajith, Rohana; Coghlan, John P; Coulson, S G; Ghosh, Sudipto; Gillman, Mark; Gorczynski, Reginald M; Klyce, Brig; Louis, Godfrey; Mahanama, Kithsiri; Oliver, Keith R; Padron, Julio; Qu, Jiangwen; Schuster, John A; Smith, W E; Snyder, Duane P; Steele, Julian A; Stewart, Brent J; Temple, Robert; Tokoro, Gensuke; Tout, Christopher A; Unzicker, Alexander; Wainwright, Milton; Wallis, Jamie; Wallis, Daryl H; Wallis, Max K; Wetherall, John; Wickramasinghe, D T; Wickramasinghe, J T; Wickramasinghe, N Chandra; Liu, Yongsheng

2018-08-01

We review the salient evidence consistent with or predicted by the Hoyle-Wickramasinghe (H-W) thesis of Cometary (Cosmic) Biology. Much of this physical and biological evidence is multifactorial. One particular focus are the recent studies which date the emergence of the complex retroviruses of vertebrate lines at or just before the Cambrian Explosion of ∼500 Ma. Such viruses are known to be plausibly associated with major evolutionary genomic processes. We believe this coincidence is not fortuitous but is consistent with a key prediction of H-W theory whereby major extinction-diversification evolutionary boundaries coincide with virus-bearing cometary-bolide bombardment events. A second focus is the remarkable evolution of intelligent complexity (Cephalopods) culminating in the emergence of the Octopus. A third focus concerns the micro-organism fossil evidence contained within meteorites as well as the detection in the upper atmosphere of apparent incoming life-bearing particles from space. In our view the totality of the multifactorial data and critical analyses assembled by Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe and their many colleagues since the 1960s leads to a very plausible conclusion - life may have been seeded here on Earth by life-bearing comets as soon as conditions on Earth allowed it to flourish (about or just before 4.1 Billion years ago); and living organisms such as space-resistant and space-hardy bacteria, viruses, more complex eukaryotic cells, fertilised ova and seeds have been continuously delivered ever since to Earth so being one important driver of further terrestrial evolution which has resulted in considerable genetic diversity and which has led to the emergence of mankind. Copyright © 2018 The Authors. Published by Elsevier Ltd.. All rights reserved
.......................
So, life-bearing comets from space have “continuously delivered” living organisms, thereby explaining the “considerable genetic diversity” on Earth.
Wow, that’s a lot of ‘belief’! Faith!

Is this “populum”? Doubt it.

This is one group's conclusions, premised on exploration of one particular hypothesis.

Weird that creation scientists NEVER actually do research on, you know, "Creation."

They just presuppose it to be true and correct, and never question it or try to learn about it.

I find that odd.

Do you?

 

[tas8831]

Tas’s posted link apparently isn’t profound...

The site you thoroughly examined in... exactly 2 minutes?

My post:

Well, except for the Precambrian fossils...

Precambrian Fossils

#347 tas8831, Yesterday at 2:22 PM ​

Your reply:

Like I said, “no obvious precursors.”

#348 Hockeycowboy, Yesterday at 2:24 PM ​

Actually, it would have been less than that since you took some time to write your amazingly detailed rebuttal post.

I'm betting it took you 10-20 times longer to furiously search for sources with keywords like "believe" and key phrases like " greatest mysteries in evolutionary biology."
Which you opted to do instead of trying to learn about the Precambrian.

 

[tas8831]

Again from the above science.gov site:

Cause of Cambrian Explosion - Terrestrial or Cosmic?

PubMed

Steele, Edward J; Al-Mufti, Shirwan; Augustyn, Kenneth A; Chandrajith, Rohana; Coghlan, John P; Coulson, S G; Ghosh, Sudipto; Gillman, Mark; Gorczynski, Reginald M; Klyce, Brig; Louis, Godfrey; Mahanama, Kithsiri; Oliver, Keith R; Padron, Julio; Qu, Jiangwen; Schuster, John A; Smith, W E; Snyder, Duane P; Steele, Julian A; Stewart, Brent J; Temple, Robert; Tokoro, Gensuke; Tout, Christopher A; Unzicker, Alexander; Wainwright, Milton; Wallis, Jamie; Wallis, Daryl H; Wallis, Max K; Wetherall, John; Wickramasinghe, D T; Wickramasinghe, J T; Wickramasinghe, N Chandra; Liu, Yongsheng

2018-08-01

We review the salient evidence consistent with or predicted by the Hoyle-Wickramasinghe (H-W) thesis of Cometary (Cosmic) Biology. Much of this physical and biological evidence is multifactorial. One particular focus are the recent studies which date the emergence of the complex retroviruses of vertebrate lines at or just before the Cambrian Explosion of ∼500 Ma. Such viruses are known to be plausibly associated with major evolutionary genomic processes. We believe this coincidence is not fortuitous but is consistent with a key prediction of H-W theory whereby major extinction-diversification evolutionary boundaries coincide with virus-bearing cometary-bolide bombardment events. A second focus is the remarkable evolution of intelligent complexity (Cephalopods) culminating in the emergence of the Octopus. A third focus concerns the micro-organism fossil evidence contained within meteorites as well as the detection in the upper atmosphere of apparent incoming life-bearing particles from space. In our view the totality of the multifactorial data and critical analyses assembled by Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe and their many colleagues since the 1960s leads to a very plausible conclusion - life may have been seeded here on Earth by life-bearing comets as soon as conditions on Earth allowed it to flourish (about or just before 4.1 Billion years ago); and living organisms such as space-resistant and space-hardy bacteria, viruses, more complex eukaryotic cells, fertilised ova and seeds have been continuously delivered ever since to Earth so being one important driver of further terrestrial evolution which has resulted in considerable genetic diversity and which has led to the emergence of mankind. Copyright © 2018 The Authors. Published by Elsevier Ltd.. All rights reserved
.......................
So, life-bearing comets from space have “continuously delivered” living organisms, thereby explaining the “considerable genetic diversity” on Earth.
Wow, that’s a lot of ‘belief’! Faith!

Is this “populum”? Doubt it.

Just curious - do you think this paper supports ID or Creationism?

Because, you know, it really doesn't. The opposite, in fact.

 

[tas8831]

Because I try to be honest and reasonable to others who act the same.

Now please post some Ediacaran fossils that are obvious precursors to the Precambrian and then the Cambrian biota.

Can you explain how you will make this determination?

What are your criteria and experience in judging such things?

 

[tas8831]

Then please enlighten us.....show some from the Precambrian.

The fact that you can be shown ANYTHING from the Precambrian - or the Cambrian - is devastating for your creation worldview. There is no evidence, at all, anywhere, for the creation sequence as claimed in the middle eastern tales you believe.

 

[tas8831]

Again from the above science.gov site:

Cause of Cambrian Explosion - Terrestrial or Cosmic?

PubMed

Steele, Edward J; Al-Mufti, Shirwan; Augustyn, Kenneth A; Chandrajith, Rohana; Coghlan, John P; Coulson, S G; Ghosh, Sudipto; Gillman, Mark; Gorczynski, Reginald M; Klyce, Brig; Louis, Godfrey; Mahanama, Kithsiri; Oliver, Keith R; Padron, Julio; Qu, Jiangwen; Schuster, John A; Smith, W E; Snyder, Duane P; Steele, Julian A; Stewart, Brent J; Temple, Robert; Tokoro, Gensuke; Tout, Christopher A; Unzicker, Alexander; Wainwright, Milton; Wallis, Jamie; Wallis, Daryl H; Wallis, Max K; Wetherall, John; Wickramasinghe, D T; Wickramasinghe, J T; Wickramasinghe, N Chandra; Liu, Yongsheng

2018-08-01

We review the salient evidence consistent with or predicted by the Hoyle-Wickramasinghe (H-W) thesis of Cometary (Cosmic) Biology. Much of this physical and biological evidence is multifactorial. One particular focus are the recent studies which date the emergence of the complex retroviruses of vertebrate lines at or just before the Cambrian Explosion of ∼500 Ma. Such viruses are known to be plausibly associated with major evolutionary genomic processes. We believe this coincidence is not fortuitous but is consistent with a key prediction of H-W theory whereby major extinction-diversification evolutionary boundaries coincide with virus-bearing cometary-bolide bombardment events. A second focus is the remarkable evolution of intelligent complexity (Cephalopods) culminating in the emergence of the Octopus. A third focus concerns the micro-organism fossil evidence contained within meteorites as well as the detection in the upper atmosphere of apparent incoming life-bearing particles from space. In our view the totality of the multifactorial data and critical analyses assembled by Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe and their many colleagues since the 1960s leads to a very plausible conclusion - life may have been seeded here on Earth by life-bearing comets as soon as conditions on Earth allowed it to flourish (about or just before 4.1 Billion years ago); and living organisms such as space-resistant and space-hardy bacteria, viruses, more complex eukaryotic cells, fertilised ova and seeds have been continuously delivered ever since to Earth so being one important driver of further terrestrial evolution which has resulted in considerable genetic diversity and which has led to the emergence of mankind. Copyright © 2018 The Authors. Published by Elsevier Ltd.. All rights reserved
.......................
So, life-bearing comets from space have “continuously delivered” living organisms, thereby explaining the “considerable genetic diversity” on Earth.
Wow, that’s a lot of ‘belief’! Faith!

Is this “populum”? Doubt it.

I down;loaded the actual paper. Pretty disappointing, really. I was especially disappointed when I looked at the references. John Mattick? Ugh...

 

[Jose Fly]

No one gave me any examples, @Jose Fly !
Polymath mentioned the Burgess Shale...that was it!


EDIT: OK, I see his reply. Sorry, I did overlook it.

How odd. How can you claim you overlooked it, when you replied to it? Looks to me like you did the stereotypical creationist two-step....you challenged folks to provide you with information (thinking they couldn't), and when someone did give the info, you just reflexively waved it away without even considering it.

And that brings me back to my main point....given the threat you are under from the Jehovah's Witnesses when it comes to evolution, do you really think you can be "honest and reasonable" when it comes to evolutionary biology?

One other thing I'm wondering about....why did you request info on pre-Cambrian fossils in the first place?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How odd. How can you claim you overlooked it, when you replied to it? Looks to me like you did the stereotypical creationist two-step....you challenged folks to provide you with information (thinking they couldn't), and when someone did give the info, you just reflexively waved it away without even considering it.

And that brings me back to my main point....given the threat you are under from the Jehovah's Witnesses when it comes to evolution, do you really think you can be "honest and reasonable" when it comes to evolutionary biology?

One other thing I'm wondering about....why did you request info on pre-Cambrian fossils in the first place?

You’re deflecting.

I simply asked for any obvious precursors to the Cambrian biota.

Post some, please.

 

[Jose Fly]

You’re deflecting.

LOL.....I've been asking you the same sort of questions (about the role being a JW plays in how you approach evolutionary biology) for several posts now and you've yet to answer, and you're accusing me of deflecting?

I simply asked for any obvious precursors to the Cambrian biota.

Again, who decides whether or not they are "obvious"?

Post some, please.

Again, why? What's your goal here?

 

[tas8831]

You’re deflecting.

I simply asked for any obvious precursors to the Cambrian biota.

Post some, please.

Will you spend more than 2 minutes looking at it?

Also, regarding your 'optimistic' rating - then show me some creation science "research" ON creation, as opposed to the norm of just "research" claiming evolution/standard geology has problems.

 

[tas8831]

Sometimes I wonder if I am too harsh with some posters. I do get frustrated with being lead astray, being fibbed to, etc., but am I too short with some folks? One of the things I usually do is Google the screen names of people I tussle with to see if they are on other forums with the same screen name, and whether or not they use the same arguments there. I also Google particular phrases in my opponent's posts, especially when the post is really long, or 'out of character.' This is how I discover the rampant plagiarism we see among the creationists. But it is also how I have discovered that some folks here make the exact same arguments - often times verbatim - on other forums. And this is of interest for this post - I do this to save time writing lengthy rebuttals - why bother if the creationist in question has already received devastating replies elsewhere and ignored them? That sort of thing. I also do this to see how other folks respond to them - again, am I being too harsh? Too short-tempered? I generally see that, nope - I am quite mild compared to some places our usual suspects show up at.
Our Egyptologist pal, for example, has made his same claims on another forum -a forum that allows down-votes on posts. Our hero has a net of -108. And his biology assertions - demolished, just like here. But he still claims "survival of the fittest" is the cause for human cruelty and such...

Ho-hum....

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@tas8831
My optimistic frubal is because you think the Cambrian evidence would be “devastating” to my understanding of Jehovah’s creation.

The Cambrian Explosion actually provides evidence of a creative event, so I don’t know how that is devastating, lol.

 

[tas8831]

@tas8831
My optimistic frubal is because you think the Cambrian evidence would be “devastating” to my understanding of Jehovah’s creation.

Would it not be? Or would you conjure up some ad hoc escape clause?

The Cambrian Explosion actually provides evidence of a creative event, so I don’t know how that is devastating, lol.

How so?

It directly counters the creation story timeline.

 

[cladking]

Our Egyptologist pal, for example, has made his same claims on another forum -a forum that allows down-votes on posts. Our hero has a net of -108. And his biology assertions - demolished, just like here. But he still claims "survival of the fittest" is the cause for human cruelty and such...

My theory is very unpopular everywhere.

But everytime someone thinks my argument has been demolished they forget to read my response. In almost every case when someone thinks they won an argument they just show things that they misinterpret and that actually support or are irrelevant to my theory.

 

[Jose Fly]

Sometimes I wonder if I am too harsh with some posters. I do get frustrated with being lead astray, being fibbed to, etc., but am I too short with some folks?

IMO, it depends on what your purpose is. If you're hoping to persuade the creationist you're talking to, then yeah I'd say your harsh style is a bit counter-productive. But if it's more about exposing their nonsense as clearly as possible for everyone else to see, then you're probably okay.

One of the things I usually do is Google the screen names of people I tussle with to see if they are on other forums with the same screen name, and whether or not they use the same arguments there. I also Google particular phrases in my opponent's posts, especially when the post is really long, or 'out of character.' This is how I discover the rampant plagiarism we see among the creationists. But it is also how I have discovered that some folks here make the exact same arguments - often times verbatim - on other forums.

Yup, you're quite adept at it and I for one appreciate it.

I mean, let's be honest here. Your typical internet creationist doesn't fully understand the arguments he posts, and is instead merely parroting things he's read or heard from some professional creationist he trusts. It's not like they're all paleontology buffs who independently read and reviewed a bunch of papers and data, eventually realized "Hey, there are no transitional fossils", and then posted that realization online. Instead, it's a combination of "transitional fossils can't exist because that would contradict creationism" and "this good Christian who I trust says there are none".

That's why plagiarism isn't really a big deal to them.

And this is of interest for this post - I do this to save time writing lengthy rebuttals - why bother if the creationist in question has already received devastating replies elsewhere and ignored them?

Exactly my point with @Hockeycowboy and asking him why he's asking for "obvious" pre-Cambrian to Cambrian transitionals. Does anyone here really believe his request is made in good faith? That he'll objectively consider what's presented to him and respond in a thoughtful manner?

The only reason I ever answer such creationist challenges is to see the absurd and bizarre lengths they'll go to in order to maintain their denialism. It fascinates me from a psychological/human behavior standpoint.

That sort of thing. I also do this to see how other folks respond to them - again, am I being too harsh? Too short-tempered? I generally see that, nope - I am quite mild compared to some places our usual suspects show up at.

Everyone has their own personal style. That's part of what makes these things entertaining. I mean, if it wasn't fun, why do it, right?

Our Egyptologist pal, for example, has made his same claims on another forum -a forum that allows down-votes on posts. Our hero has a net of -108. And his biology assertions - demolished, just like here. But he still claims "survival of the fittest" is the cause for human cruelty and such...

And he'll probably never stop, no matter what anyone here says to him. That's the nature of creationism...being rooted in deeply personal beliefs means even the prospect of changing them can be absolutely terrifying. Far safer to just stay the course.

 

[ecco]

Since this thread touches on evolution I thought I'd post this. It's now available for PC.

 

[nPeace]

Misirepresenting actual papers and citing creationist opinion pieces from blogs filled with more of such dishonest, is not a proper way to argue.

Talking to, gives me this mental picture

View attachment 32243

Nice illustration of those who ignore science journals that admit scientists have beliefs.
Only in those cases, the sand is wet concrete, and they let the sun set before attempting to move.

 

[nPeace]

@blü 2 Sorry to be away so long. Just dealing with something. I'll respond as soon as I can. Take care.

 

[nPeace]

Again from the above science.gov site:

Cause of Cambrian Explosion - Terrestrial or Cosmic?

PubMed

Steele, Edward J; Al-Mufti, Shirwan; Augustyn, Kenneth A; Chandrajith, Rohana; Coghlan, John P; Coulson, S G; Ghosh, Sudipto; Gillman, Mark; Gorczynski, Reginald M; Klyce, Brig; Louis, Godfrey; Mahanama, Kithsiri; Oliver, Keith R; Padron, Julio; Qu, Jiangwen; Schuster, John A; Smith, W E; Snyder, Duane P; Steele, Julian A; Stewart, Brent J; Temple, Robert; Tokoro, Gensuke; Tout, Christopher A; Unzicker, Alexander; Wainwright, Milton; Wallis, Jamie; Wallis, Daryl H; Wallis, Max K; Wetherall, John; Wickramasinghe, D T; Wickramasinghe, J T; Wickramasinghe, N Chandra; Liu, Yongsheng

2018-08-01

We review the salient evidence consistent with or predicted by the Hoyle-Wickramasinghe (H-W) thesis of Cometary (Cosmic) Biology. Much of this physical and biological evidence is multifactorial. One particular focus are the recent studies which date the emergence of the complex retroviruses of vertebrate lines at or just before the Cambrian Explosion of ∼500 Ma. Such viruses are known to be plausibly associated with major evolutionary genomic processes. We believe this coincidence is not fortuitous but is consistent with a key prediction of H-W theory whereby major extinction-diversification evolutionary boundaries coincide with virus-bearing cometary-bolide bombardment events. A second focus is the remarkable evolution of intelligent complexity (Cephalopods) culminating in the emergence of the Octopus. A third focus concerns the micro-organism fossil evidence contained within meteorites as well as the detection in the upper atmosphere of apparent incoming life-bearing particles from space. In our view the totality of the multifactorial data and critical analyses assembled by Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe and their many colleagues since the 1960s leads to a very plausible conclusion - life may have been seeded here on Earth by life-bearing comets as soon as conditions on Earth allowed it to flourish (about or just before 4.1 Billion years ago); and living organisms such as space-resistant and space-hardy bacteria, viruses, more complex eukaryotic cells, fertilised ova and seeds have been continuously delivered ever since to Earth so being one important driver of further terrestrial evolution which has resulted in considerable genetic diversity and which has led to the emergence of mankind. Copyright © 2018 The Authors. Published by Elsevier Ltd.. All rights reserved
.......................
So, life-bearing comets from space have “continuously delivered” living organisms, thereby explaining the “considerable genetic diversity” on Earth.
Wow, that’s a lot of ‘belief’! Faith!

Is this “populum”? Doubt it.

Hey bro. Thanks for this fairly recent article.
Multifactorial huh. Seems like no end to the guesswork.
See you later.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Nice illustration of those who ignore science journals that admit scientists have beliefs.
Only in those cases, the sand is wet concrete, and they let the sun set before attempting to move.

whatever makes you sleep at night