Arrogance and Religion

[ChristineES]

Anyone can be arrogant: Theists, atheists and agnostics. There are a lot of people who feel as though they are nothing unless they are right. It isn't limited to only group.

 

[dogsgod]

Oh come on. It wasn't too long ago that Christians in Russia and China were being put to death for practicing their faith.

In fact, you STILL can't openly practice Christianity in China.

Don't worry - you're in no danger of being burned at the stake. But if you try to bring a bible into China, you may end up in a very nasty jail.

Oh, I get it, atheists are communists, ha ha. Didn't see that one coming.

 

[ChristineES]

Oh, I get it, atheists are communists, ha ha. Didn't see that one coming.

You know good and well that Kathryn didn't insinuate that in her post. She was saying that atheists aren't any different than theists outside of the belief in God.

 

[Kathryn]

Thanks for being so reasonable (as usual), Christine. But please don't stop him! He's illustrating my very point so much more eloquently than I ever could!

 

[dogsgod]

Thanks for being so reasonable (as usual), Christine. But please don't stop him! He's illustrating my very point so much more eloquently than I ever could!

And what point would that be?

 

[Eliot Wild]

My point is that RELIGION and RELIGIOUS PEOPLE are no more or less arrogant than their atheist counterparts. I would call it more of a HUMAN trait than a RELIGIOUS trait - this tendency to be condescending of belief systems that one doesn't share.

Good point.

I believe you are right. It is a mistake to believe that either group, atheist or christian, is more naturally resistent to misguided arrogance born of a personal faith in ideas.

I suppose that I err by holding expectations that, based on their proposed beliefs, christians might engage in more guided conduct.









...

 

[Storm]

So you don't believe in the big three, or her sisters and brothers. You have found a smaller less known belief that suits your fancy.
Or, perhaps better yet you have created your own, completely out of the thin air aided by your past experiences.

All should demand respect, so long as they respect others, but where is the arrogance in all of this?

If I say I denounce the Jewish religion, and cite and handful of reasons, yet don't stop there and explain I have come up with my own beliefs, do you not realize it is just as faulty and arrogant as those sticking with one of the big three?

Something strangely odd in the manner, interaction, and over all demeanor of any and all religions. Something I can't quite put my finger own, but it smells SO MUCH of arrogance. Maybe I'm wrong

Arrogance is a trait of an individual personality, not of belief systems.

People are arrogant about religion because they think their own beliefs are better or more "authentic" than other beliefs.

I don't.

It is not arrogance to seek answers. Humility does not imply uncertainty.

Absolutely.

The trick is in knowing that self-assurance does not make one master of truth.

This is what I strive for.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Anyone can be arrogant: Theists, atheists and agnostics. There are a lot of people who feel as though they are nothing unless they are right. It isn't limited to only group.

I would agree with this. Certainly, no group, religious or otherwise, has a monopoly on philosophical arrogance.

Obviously, some others were a bit defensive at my decision to focus my thoughts on religious arrogance evidenced by certain Christians. It was implied, or perhaps even outright stated, that for Christians to mock and ridicule the beliefs of others was acceptible because atheists engage in similar behavior.

As someone who doesn't practice Christianity, I certainly cannot bring myself to disagree with them. They are free to defend themselves and their organized religious affiliation as they deem appropriate.

However, though some may believe me shortsighted, or perhaps even unfair in my judgment, I don't hold the same expectations of atheists that I do of Christians. I suppose, though again some obviously think it unfair of me, since atheists don't subscribe to a Divinely-influenced belief structure, I don't find their philosophical arrogance to be notable; it doesn't suprise me or seem hypocritical.

Perhaps I have been wrong for doing so, but I suppose I expect a different "code of conduct", so to speak, from Christians. I felt this expectation on my part to be well-guided, as Christians have the IDEAL of Christ to emulate and a moral framework within which to operate.

Forgive me if this is too personal a question, Christine, but I notice you refer to yourself as a "Follower of Christ". As such, do you believe it unfair if, based on Christ's teachings and instructions to his followers, people hold different expectations of your behavior than they do of atheists or other groups?

 

[ChristineES]

Forgive me if this is too personal a question, Christine, but I notice you refer to yourself as a "Follower of Christ". As such, do you believe it unfair if, based on Christ's teachings and instructions to his followers, people hold different expectations of your behavior than they do of atheists or other groups?

I use "follower of Christ" because once I spoke with a Jewish Rabbi and he told me that I would be considered Jewish by birth, although I never practiced the religion of Judaism. My maternal grandmother had Jewish parents, who were atheists, and she followed Catholicism because my grandfather was born Italian (in Italy) and was Catholic (he came to the USA when he was 3). My mother was an atheist from the age of 12 until her early 40s. My father was born Navajo, but practiced Catholicism, too (but is not very religious)from childhood- but he hasn't been much a part of my life since I was 6. Also, I am between Churches right now- I am a Baptist, but I don't agree with them 100% and I am currently trying to find one that fits my beliefs.

 

[Eliot Wild]

I use "follower of Christ" because once I spoke with a Jewish Rabbi and he told me that I would be considered Jewish by birth, although I never practiced the religion of Judaism. My maternal grandmother had Jewish parents, who were atheists, and she followed Catholicism because my grandfather was born Italian (in Italy) and was Catholic (he came to the USA when he was 3). My mother was an atheist from the age of 12 until her early 40s. My father was born Navajo, but practiced Catholicism, too (but is not very religious)from childhood- but he hasn't been much a part of my life since I was 6. Also, I am between Churches right now- I am a Baptist, but I don't agree with them 100% and I am currently trying to find one that fits my beliefs.

Thanks for the reply.

I am in a similar boat. I was raised in a Southern Baptist household but now too find many aspects of that particular dogma to be "undigestible", for lack of a better word.

I regret that I have a tendency to draw the ire of practicing Christians here and elsewhere that philosophy and religion are debated and discussed. But I'm rarely compelled to challenge what I perceive as outlandish or misguided beliefs of atheists, at least not to the degree I am with Christians and perhaps some other religious practitioners. Due to their lack of belief in the divine, I simply have no real expectations of their conduct. Christ, however, provided a model upon which his followers are supposed to imitate their behavior, or at least try.

I suppose that is why I am more likely to focus my attentions toward them, and that tends to make many defensive. So it goes.

 

[dogsgod]

You know good and well that Kathryn didn't insinuate that in her post. She was saying that atheists aren't any different than theists outside of the belief in God.

Then what's the point of religion? I poke fun at religion because it's there, and from what you claim, I'm not mocking anything of any consequence.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Then what's the point of religion? I poke fun at religion because it's there, and from what you claim, I'm not mocking anything of any consequence.

Exactly. This states perfectly in just a couple of sentences what I have been feebily trying to do in multiple posts. I really got to work on being more concise.

But what is the point of subscribing to divine guidance if one conducts themselves in the same manner as those who reject the notion of the divine?

And don't get me wrong, I am not giving atheists a pass. There still are standards of conduct to which I and others, including the state, expect them to adhere. Everybody is supposed to obey the law. But is that all that is to be expected of Christians and other religious practitioners?

Someone earlier copied a post of mine in which I was critical of Christians and they interchanged the word "Christian" for "Atheist", apparently making a point that both groups are equally capable of succumbing to philosophical arrogance. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that is the one of the worst reflections possible of some Christians.

Doesn't the Bible instruct Christians to be a "peculiar" people? What is the point of Christianity if its followers are interchangeable with those who find God unbelievable?

 

[Storm]

Exactly. This states perfectly in just a couple of sentences what I have been feebily trying to do in multiple posts. I really got to work on being more concise.

But what is the point of subscribing to divine guidance if one conducts themselves in the same manner as those who reject the notion of the divine?

And don't get me wrong, I am not giving atheists a pass. There still are standards of conduct to which I and others, including the state, expect them to adhere. Everybody is supposed to obey the law. But is that all that is to be expected of Christians and other religious practitioners?

Someone earlier copied a post of mine in which I was critical of Christians and they interchanged the word "Christian" for "Atheist", apparently making a point that both groups are equally capable of succumbing to philosophical arrogance. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that is the one of the worst reflections possible of some Christians.

Doesn't the Bible instruct Christians to be a "peculiar" people? What is the point of Christianity if its followers are interchangeable with those who find God unbelievable?

Religion is many things, but not magical. It can guide, but it's up to you to follow.

It doesn't make people humble or selfless, anymore than it makes them arrogant or greedy.

You seem to be holding the religious to a higher standard. Why is that?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Doesn't the Bible instruct Christians to be a "peculiar" people? What is the point of Christianity if its followers are interchangeable with those who find God unbelievable?

Everybody's a jerk, but it allows you feel self-righteous about being a jerk.

 

[Eliot Wild]

Religion is many things, but not magical. It can guide, but it's up to you to follow.

It doesn't make people humble or selfless, anymore than it makes them arrogant or greedy.

You seem to be holding the religious to a higher standard. Why is that?

Yes, I am. Is that unfair?

And it is not so much that I hold them to a different standard, although I suppose that is an element of it. It is actually more precise to say that I hold different expectations based on an established model of prescribed conduct.

I tend to focus more on Christianity, as that is the religion I am most familiar with having been raised to it.

I certainly have different expectations of Christian conduct based on their supposed subscription to the Ideal of Christ-like behavior.

And don't get me wrong, I am sincerely asking if I am being unfair. I am not being rhetorical. I will readily concede that perhaps I am being unfair.

Though I understand what you are saying about religion not being magical, it still should be life-changing, shouldn't it? Or is that too much to expect as well? I suppose there is an element of hypocrisy that I often find bothersome with religious followers. If one claims to be a Christian, an adherent and practitioner of the teachings of Christ, then yes, most certainly, I have a model of behavior on which I can gage expectations of their conduct.

If someone tells me they are an atheist, I have no expectation for them not to be arrogant. But the Christian, inherently, by way of subscribed doctrine and conviction, has a different standard to live up to. Is that an unfair expectation?

 

[Peacewise]

Something strangely odd in the manner, interaction, and over all demeanor of any and all religions. Something I can't quite put my finger own, but it smells SO MUCH of arrogance. Maybe I'm wrong

That is bias you smell, do put your finger on it and reject it.

Have you met every person of any and all religions?
Have you completely read and understood the holy books of any and all religions?

If you answer no to both these questions then your statement above is biased.

 

[dogsgod]

That is bias you smell, do put your finger on it and reject it.

Have you met every person of any and all religions?
Have you completely read and understood the holy books of any and all religions?

If you answer no to both these questions then your statement above is biased.

I answered yes to both questions. I might be a liar, but at least I'm not biased.

 

[Storm]

Yes, I am. Is that unfair?

And it is not so much that I hold them to a different standard, although I suppose that is an element of it. It is actually more precise to say that I hold different expectations based on an established model of prescribed conduct.

I tend to focus more on Christianity, as that is the religion I am most familiar with having been raised to it.

I certainly have different expectations of Christian conduct based on their supposed subscription to the Ideal of Christ-like behavior.

And don't get me wrong, I am sincerely asking if I am being unfair. I am not being rhetorical. I will readily concede that perhaps I am being unfair.

Though I understand what you are saying about religion not being magical, it still should be life-changing, shouldn't it? Or is that too much to expect as well? I suppose there is an element of hypocrisy that I often find bothersome with religious followers. If one claims to be a Christian, an adherent and practitioner of the teachings of Christ, then yes, most certainly, I have a model of behavior on which I can gage expectations of their conduct.

If someone tells me they are an atheist, I have no expectation for them not to be arrogant. But the Christian, inherently, by way of subscribed doctrine and conviction, has a different standard to live up to. Is that an unfair expectation?

I see two questions here:
1) Are you being unfair in holding the religious to a higher standard.
2) Whether Christianity itself is unfair to its followers.

The answer to both, imo, is yes. People are people, whatever path they tread. Christianity in particular asks far too much of the average person. While I'll agree that far too many Christians are hypocritical in that they expect everyone else to meet standards they don't, not all of them are like that.

 

[dogsgod]

I see two questions here:
1) Are you being unfair in holding the religious to a higher standard.
2) Whether Christianity itself is unfair to its followers.

The answer to both, imo, is yes. People are people, whatever path they tread. Christianity in particular asks far too much of the average person. While I'll agree that far too many Christians are hypocritical in that they expect everyone else to meet standards they don't, not all of them are like that.

So, there's no point to Christianity?

 

[Storm]

So, there's no point to Christianity?

Not what I said.