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Arrogance and Religion

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
That's not precisely true. You can practice Christianity openly in China; what you cannot do openly is to be a member of an unregistered and therefore illegal congregation.


It is legal to import Bibles into China. It is, however, illegal to smuggle Bibles into China, particularly for the use of banned groups.


I'll look into this. I know several families who have adopted children from China in the past few years, and they were not allowed to bring their own bible with them on the trip.

They were also told that they were absolutely forbidden to discuss their faith with the staff at the orphanages. When they filled out their paperwork for the adoption, they were told that when it asks for their religion, it is best to put "none" because if they put "Christian" (or for that matter, ANY religion) their application would probably be rejected.

They were not allowed to bring any religious books or items whatsoever with them.
 

Boethiah

Penguin
Do the non religious not strive to better themselves? What's the point of believing on faith in some invisible ancient god? Is that really necessary?

Of course it isn't necessary. But who lives their life by only what is necessary?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
The point of religion is as deeply and intensely personal as the path one chooses.

For some, it's connection to history.

To others, Enlightenment, perfection and freedom.

For me, twin purposes:
1) To make the world a better place. My religious affiliation makes me part of a greater force, one that teaches ideals capable of truly transforming society into something better and nobler. More importantly, it has been my experience that UUs collectively walk their talk, butting those lofty ideals into action.
2) To KNOW. I want to understand reality, and for me this includes God. I know I'll never truly grasp it, but I am driven to try.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
The single greatest obstacles that human rights advocates have to overcome are those imposed by the religious. Funny how that works.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
The single greatest obstacles that human rights advocates have to overcome are those imposed by the religious. Funny how that works.
Granted that religious ideology has a part in this, what part does it play in human trafficking? I find human trafficking to be the worst and largest of human rights breaches. I find no religion what so ever in this tragedy.

So to say that religious thought is the single greatest obstacles is really not a statement interested in rational thinking, I hardly find the idea that Islamic Extremism wanting women to stay fully clothed, is the same as selling a child for profits. Where the latter has nothing to do with religious thought.
 

Boethiah

Penguin
The single greatest obstacles that human rights advocates have to overcome are those imposed by the religious. Funny how that works.

I would not say they are "imposed by the religious", which implies that all religious people imposes these obstacles.

Also, there are a number of problems where religion has nothing to do with it (as said before). The threat of nuclear war, for example. The point is, arrogance isn't a specific religious or atheistic problem. It is a human problem.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
From the State Department website:
China (includes Hong Kong, Macau, and Tibet)

"Members of many unregistered religious groups reported that the Government subjected them to restrictions, including intimidation, harassment, and detention.

There were many reports of repression of unregistered Protestant church networks and house churches during the reporting period.
Police sometimes detained worshippers attending such services for hours or days and prevented further house worship in the venues. Police interrogated both laypeople and their leaders about their activities at the meeting sites, in hotel rooms, and in detention centers. Leaders sometimes faced harsher treatment, including detention, formal arrest and sentencing to reeducation or imprisonment.

The Government continued its repression of groups that it designated as "cults," which included several Christian groups and the Falun Gong. The Government has never publicly defined the criteria which it uses for designating a religious group a "cult." Falun Gong practitioners continued to face arrest, detention, and imprisonment, and there were credible reports of deaths due to torture and abuse. Practitioners who refuse to recant their beliefs are sometimes subjected to harsh treatment in prisons, reeducation through labor camps, and extra-judicial "legal education" centers.

The Government registers religious organizations, and determines the legality of religious activities. Registered religious groups enjoy legal protections of their religious practices that unregistered religious groups do not receive.

SARA monitors and judges whether religious activities are "normal" and therefore lawful. Employees of SARA and the UFWD are rarely religious adherents and often are Communist Party members. Communist Party members are directed by Party doctrine to be atheists, and their family members are discouraged from public participation in religious ceremonies.

House churches report that local authorities frequently disrupted meetings of friends and family in private homes and arrested participants on the grounds that they were participating in illegal gatherings.

During the period covered by this report, the Government's respect for religious freedom remained poor, especially for members of unregistered religious groups and groups the Government designated as "cults."

Officials in some areas organized registration campaigns collecting the names, addresses, and sometimes the fingerprints of church leaders and worshippers. Some local authorities continued to harass religious groups that did not register by arresting and interrogating unregistered church leaders.

It was also difficult for registered groups to register new places of worship, such as churches and mosques, even in areas with growing religious populations.

Xinjiang authorities continued to use combating terrorism to justify placing restrictions on peaceful religious practices of Uighur Muslims, according to human rights NGOs. While often targeted at Muslims, this tight control of religion in Xinjiang affected followers of other religions as well. In some areas of Xinjiang, officials restricted the building of mosques and the training of clergy and interfered with the teaching of Islam to children outside the home. Some ethnic Tajiks in Xinjiang could not attend mosque until over age 30.

The law does not prohibit religious believers from holding public office; however, Communist Party membership is required for almost all high-level positions in Government, state-owned businesses, and many official organizations. Communist Party officials reiterated during the period covered by this report that party membership and religious belief are incompatible. The CCP reportedly has stated that party members who belong to religious organizations are subject to expulsion. The "Routine Service Regulations" of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) state explicitly that servicemen "may not take part in religious or superstitious activities." Muslims allegedly have been fired from government posts for praying during working hours. The Government required students to study the principles of Chinese Communism, an atheistic ideology.

Some Xinjiang officials told foreign observers that children under 18 were not permitted to attend religious services in mosques in Xinjiang. Local officials in Xinjiang prevented children from attending worship services in mosques or churches.

Individuals cannot order Bibles directly from publishing houses, and purchases of large numbers of Bibles could bring unfavorable attention to the purchaser. Religious texts published without authorization, including Bibles and Qur'ans, may be confiscated and the unauthorized publishing houses closed. Religious adherents are subject to arrest and imprisonment for illegal publishing. Authorities sometimes confiscate Bibles in raids on house churches.

Religious adherents and members of spiritual movements have been beaten, and some have died in police custody after being detained in connection with their religious belief or practice.

The Government detained, arrested, or sentenced to prison terms many religious leaders and adherents. Citizens may be sentenced by a nonjudicial panel of police and local authorities to up to 3 years in reeducation-through-labor camps. In some areas security authorities used threats, demolition of unregistered property, extortion, interrogation, detention, and at times beatings and torture to harass leaders of unauthorized groups and their followers.

Some Protestant Christians who worshipped outside of government-approved venues, including in their homes, continued to face detention and abuse, especially for attempting to meet in large groups, traveling within and outside of the country for religious meetings, and otherwise holding peaceful religious assemblies in unregistered venues. Police and other security officials sometimes disrupted Protestant religious meetings.

In June 2007 Beijing house church activist Hua Huaiqi was sentenced in a closed trial to 6 months in prison for obstruction of justice. Police reportedly beat him in jail and poured cold water over him in frigid weather. In April 2007 the Beijing Intermediate People's Court rejected the appeal of Shuang Shuying, the 76-year-old mother of Beijing house church activist Hua Huaiqi. Shuang was sentenced to 2 years in jail for destruction of public and private property. She claimed that she was defending herself from being struck by an oncoming police car when her cane struck the headlights of the car.

In March 2007 police arrested and detained CHCA Vice President and Pastor Dong Quanyu and his wife, Li Huage, for 10 days for "disturbing public order." Public security bureau officers reportedly beat Li Huage severely. Police also confiscated property from their home.

In March 2007 public security personnel in Zhangshi Village in Henan Province reportedly attacked members of a house church group as they left an Easter service. Members of the group reported that they were forced into police cars, that police detained them without producing arrest warrants and interrogated them for up to 24 hours. Police interrogated three leaders of the group, 71-year-old Ma Wenqing, Zhang Jinzhi, and Zhang Liang, and reportedly stripped two women of their clothing. The detained Christians alleged that police tortured them into confessing that they were members of an evil cult.

In February 2007 police and local RAB officials reportedly raided a prayer meeting held in a private home in Shuanghuang Township, Jiangsu Province. The police photographed those in attendance and took down their names. When some of the individuals refused to give their names, police reportedly beat them. Police forced the owner of the home, Tan Jianwei, to sign a statement agreeing not to hold religious activities in his home.

In April 2007, family planning officials in Baise, Guanguxi Province, forced Wei Linrong, the wife of house church pastor Liang Yage to have an abortion against her will. Ten officials took Ms. Wei, who was 7 months' pregnant, from her home to a hospital where doctors induced delivery. According to media reports, Liang and his wife explicitly objected to the forced abortion because it forced them to violate their religious beliefs.

In some locations local authorities reportedly forced unregistered Catholic priests and believers to renounce ordinations approved by the Holy See, join the official church, or face a variety of punishments including fines, job loss, detentions, and having their children barred from school.

There were credible reports of torture and deaths in custody of Falun Gong practitioners in past years. According to Falun Gong practitioners in the United States, since 1999 more than 100,000 practitioners have been detained for engaging in Falun Gong practices, admitting that they adhere to the teachings of Falun Gong, or refusing to criticize the organization or its founder. The organization reported that its members have been subject to excessive force, abuse, rape, detention, and torture, and that some of its members, including children, have died in custody."


Oh yeah, everything's just great in China. Religious freedom abounds!
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Meanwhile, here are just a few of the GOOD things that religious adherents are TRYING to do in spite of their persecution:


"There are approximately 600 Buddhist and Taoist temples, an estimated 800 Christian churches and chapels, 5 mosques, 4 synagogues, 1 Hindu temple, and 1 Sikh temple. Catholics are served by 1 cardinal (appointed in 2006), 1 bishop, 297 priests, 66 monks, and 516 nuns, all of whom maintain traditional links to the Vatican. The assistant secretary general of the Federation of Asian Bishops' Conference had his office in the region. Along with its apostolic work, the Catholic Church engages in a broad array of social service activities. It operates 313 schools and kindergartens that enrolled more than 264 thousand children. In addition it operates 6 hospitals, 15 clinics, 37 social centers, 18 hostels, 13 homes for the aged, and 19 rehabilitation centers.
Protestant churches are also deeply involved in education, health care, and social welfare. Protestant organizations operate three post-secondary institutions: Chung Chi College at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong Baptist University, and Lingnan University. As of November 2006, they also ran 160 secondary schools, 206 primary schools, 273 kindergartens, and 116 nurseries. In addition they operated more than 30 theological seminaries and Bible schools, 30 Christian publishing houses, 70 Christian bookshops, 7 hospitals, 18 clinics, 35 homes for the elderly, 47 centers for the disabled, and scores of youth and day care centers. Two ecumenical bodies in Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Chinese Christian Churches Union and the Hong Kong Christian Council, facilitate cooperative work among Protestant and other churches across the HKSAR. These bodies also have a number of affiliated organizations, such as the Hong Kong Christian Service, Hong Kong Christian Industrial Committee, United Christian Medical Service, Christian Family Service Centre, and Alice Ho Miu Ling Nethersole Hospital.
Various Muslim organizations also offer medical care, education, and financial aid to the needy. Some religious leaders and communities maintained active contacts with their mainland and international counterparts."
 

FluentYank3825

Ironic Idealist
One can believe that their own religion is right for them. Like, I believe the Baha'i Faith is right for me because it fits me. But, I do not think that the Baha'i Faith is necessarily the only right way, or the only way at all. It is not the universal "correct" path. I cannot claim it is, because claiming this would require objective proof that it is the most correct religion in comparison to others. That would require some sort of measure or scale to determine which religion was "correct". It is impossible to prove that a religion is more correct than another religion, because religions rarely have physical evidence of their claims. So, one can believe that a path is right for them individually, but when they start claiming it is the most correct path universally, it becomes arrogant.

Amen, man! I couldn't have said this any better myself. When I was an actively practicing Mormon, leaders and missionaries constantly use the Moroni 10:3-5 approach from the Book of Mormon, that through the Holy Ghost one can know the truth of all things. They also teach faith exists as belief in the unseen that gradually grows into a tree of knowledge. I've held to these teachings for quite a few years, but now I've become more skeptical of them. To the former, I now ask myself: "How does one truly recognize the Holy Ghost, if the euphoric feelings I receive after I pray are just as likely to be experienced by others outside of its supposed influence, or if each person feels the HG differently, in his or her own way?" To the latter I ask: "If true, certain knowledge of God grows from faith, doesn't that mean this knowledge can never be proven fully, as it is still based on faith?" Part of me I guess is now too empirical to take this seriously.

But then, I see fellow Mormons fully living their lives soundly based on these principles. And now I think to myself "Perhaps Mormonism is right for them, but not for me. Perhaps all we need to be is good and let God sort it out afterwards." Your statement, Boethiah, gives these possibilities more weight.

Anyone can be arrogant: Theists, atheists and agnostics. There are a lot of people who feel as though they are nothing unless they are right. It isn't limited to only group. :)

Yes. Arrogance is strictly a human emotion, and it exists both inside and outside of organized religion. I know, because I suffer from it.

So it's an exclusive club, for the indoctrinated.

From a certain point of view, yes, easy to join, but not so easy to get out of, with severe penalties occurred for doing so. Sounds like a cell-phone contract, now that I think about it.

Oh, honestly! Following a faith is a ongoing process. The point is that we strive to better ourselves and we use God to help us. Christians read Jesus' words so we can follow them; other faiths have their own writings. No one is perfect, not even people who follow a faith or religion. :angel2:

Very true, very true. Religion is flawed because man is flawed.

It is with THAT attitude...

The point of the religion for the individual would be to strive to learn from Christ's teachings to make themselves better individuals in measure to the teachings of Christ.

It depends on how one defines "perfect". If perfect is defined as "without flaw", then the individual would derive what a flaw is from the Bible (if they are a Christian).

No one is perfect. I don't think that is the point. To a Christian, Jesus is probably the only symbol of human perfection. I don't think Christians expect to be exactly like Jesus. That would be impossible.

Any person of any religion or lack thereof can strive to become better. The way one goes about it and how one defines "better" is the diving factor. Religion is just a choice for some.

Yes, I agree. Man, according to Epictetus, possesses a freewill and an ability reason equivalent with the gods, meant to better and perfect him. So long as he uses it for good, it is used well, regardless of whatever faith or religion you place it in.
 
One of the problems with current religious and pseudo-religious structures is arrogance and the way they manipulate power to their own ends. Some religious people are truly kind, tolerant, and open-minded. Others are bent on controlling others, subordinating entire societies, and persecuting the persecuted in order to get ahead.

Organized religion is the ultimate form of oppression & control over a person's life because it prevents prevents people from realizing the strength that lies within themselves. By believing in false gods, people naturally suppress their inner strength, setting up false moral boundaries regarding sexuality, honor, free will, and free expression.

We must overcome a basic flaw existing in most current organized-religious structures. In an uncertain time, religions retreat into themselves. In asserting their own, unique authenticity, they deny it to other religions, and even come to deny it to the new thinking within their own faith. There is more danger to a religion which rejects dissent within itself than in any openness to other revelations. If fanaticism were to dominate within the religious world--and there are signs that this is happening--religion would indeed withdraw from the new dialogue which the revolutions of communication have achieved. It would become--irrelevant.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Just Me Mike,

Arrogance and Religion

*Islam will dominate* is surely a pointer towards that direction.

It simply shows the mind is not yet transcended that one is not yet *religious* or on the *path*; as RELIGION itself has nothing to do with labels like islam/christianity/jewism/ etc. religiousness comes from within an individual and the journey is internal and so personal and nothing do do with others as there has never been a case where a group found salvation at the same moment. Each finds salvation according to his own karma.

Love & rgds
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Friend Just Me Mike,



*Islam will dominate* is surely a pointer towards that direction.

It simply shows the mind is not yet transcended that one is not yet *religious* or on the *path*; as RELIGION itself has nothing to do with labels like islam/christianity/jewism/ etc. religiousness comes from within an individual and the journey is internal and so personal and nothing do do with others as there has never been a case where a group found salvation at the same moment. Each finds salvation according to his own karma.

Love & rgds
Assuming one is seeking salvation.
 

Dan4reason

Facts not Faith
I have observed arrogance in religious people, but really depends on their personalities. This arrogance can also be seen by atheists who are very confident in their beliefs. Many have witnessed it in this forum but also in many famous atheists such as Richard Dawkins. People have a tendency to become arrogant once they are very sure of something and become very positive that they are right. This has nothing to do with the question over whether they are right or not. I guess the only thing you can do is to be humble and realize that you are human and may very well be wrong no matter how many facts are backing you up.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend dogsgod,

The point of religion is to seek salvation? People are still doing that?
Exactly,
Religion itself means a path or a way towards salvation or merger with the *whole*.
Some are conscious and revolutionize the process HERE-NOW others unconsciously leave it to evolution to move them.

Love & rgds
 
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