As we learn about Mother Tamil and matriarchal society, patriarchal society

[River Sea]

@GoodAttention what are the areas you agree or disagree with what Mahi wrote at Quora, so I can learn.

the word “Neela”, which signifies ‘blue’ in both Sanskrit and Tamil.

Look how Mahi uses the word loanwords

Although Tamil is entirely different from Sanskrit and possesses a full vocabulary of its own words for Sanskrit loan words, I am not entirely convinced that it can be used effectively in today’s world.

Quora
Mahi knows Tamil

My Tamil friend say I can speak his language without using any Sanskrit word. But is this true since clearly no language has enough vocabulary for everything, especially the delicately complex and deeply abstract terms of which Sanskrit abounds?
My Tamil friend say I can speak his language without using any Sanskrit word. But is this true since clearly no language has enough vocab...
My Tamil friend say I can speak his language without using any Sanskrit word. But is this true since clearly no language has enough vocab...

Mahi
Born as TamilMay 9
I would assert that the statement holds 95 percent veracity when one applies concerted effort, but it does not stand true under typical exertion. As a native Tamil speaker with a rudimentary understanding of Sanskrit, I am capable of distinguishing Sanskrit words from Tamil, a skill that many native Tamil speakers may lack.
Consider the word “Neela”, which signifies ‘blue’ in both Sanskrit and Tamil. The natural inclination for many is to categorise it as a Sanskrit word. However, based on linguistic syllables, I personally believe it could also be Tamil. There is a slight possibility that a minuscule amount of vocabulary has been incorporated into Sanskrit, but this is negligible compared to the number of Sanskrit loan words present in Tamil.
Take, for instance, the Tamil word “suthanthiram”, which is evidently derived from the Sanskrit word “svatantra”. There can be no dispute about this from anyone possessing a basic understanding of the linguistic relationship between these two languages.
There was a time when Sanskrit served as the lingua franca in the Indian subcontinent, and perhaps even beyond. This could explain the similarities between Sanskrit and Latin, Germanic languages, or Romance languages. Sanskrit was utilised for political, linguistic, and spiritual purposes, not just within the Indo-Gangetic Plains, but also across the larger continent, and notably within South India. It is evident that Sanskrit scholars in Tamil Nadu and Kerala are often more proficient in Sanskrit than their northern counterparts.
Just as English is used as the lingua franca in today’s world, Sanskrit was used in the Indian subcontinent. Consequently, many words entered the daily lexicon of Tamil speakers. We can observe a similar effect today with English words being incorporated into Tamil and other Indian languages, which is quite normal.
However, there is no denying the fact that Tamil is indeed a separate and unique language from Sanskrit. But inevitably, due to the popularity and usage of Sanskrit among Tamils, numerous loan words have been introduced, despite Tamil being entirely unique and belonging to a separate Dravidian family.
Now, if we consider the previously explained loan word “suthanthiram” (which is Tatbhava), what is the exact Tamil word that can be used? Many would argue that we could use “Viduthalai”, but I don’t believe that “Viduthalai” carries the exact same connotation and meaning as “Suthanthiram”. Could there be another word that has been omitted from our Tamil vocabulary? I am uncertain.
Although Tamil is entirely different from Sanskrit and possesses a full vocabulary of its own words for Sanskrit loan words, I am not entirely convinced that it can be used effectively in today’s world.

 

[River Sea]

Hindu calendar is largely separate to the Tamil calendar.

@GoodAttention How come the Hindu calendar is largely separated from the Tamil calendar? What would separated mean? I can understand systems, so for example, if group A has a system and then group B has a simpler system, people would gravitate towards a simpler system compared to a more complicated 13-month system. But still, how would that separate?

I generally disagree with Michael Witzel. Not just Afghanistan, you could say that about Central Asia too: Why was turtle important for them? I do not know the answer.

I too disagree with Michael Witzel because he thought of invasion, and I'm not agreeing with invasion. I also don't know why turtles were important for them.

Interestingly, mel in Tamil refers to woman, and also making moulds of wax for clay and perhaps metalwork, as well as the spreading of cow-dung over land.

I found this on YouTube Dung Collector Girl

@River Sea, cow-dung is a very useful material. made into cakes, it is used for cooking. put into pits, it generates methane which can be used in cooking and the residue in pits is used as fertilizer. it saves on energy and reduces need for fire-wood. also means a smokeless kitchen. there are millions of such plants in india. government subsidizes construcion of such plants. mixed with soil it is used in adobe houses for walls and flooring. the sitting area in our ancestral house had such a floor. it remains cool in hot summers and was not cold in winters. also, covered with cotton carpets (durries), it is not hard when walked upon and makes very comfortable sitting. actually, people can sell cow dung to one state government in india.

dried cow dung cakes on wall, cow dung+clay+straw wall, cooking with cow dung, cow dung gas plant, woman putting cow dung cakes on wall

 

[Aupmanyav]

How come the Hindu calendar is largely separated from the Tamil calendar? What would separated mean? I can understand systems, so for example, if group A has a system and then group B has a simpler system, people would gravitate towards a simpler system compared to a more complicated 13-month system. But still, how would that separate?

'Hinduism' is a democracy. It always was and it is that still today. Every one votes for what he/she likes.
In Buddha's age, we termed it as 'Ganarajya' (People's rule) and there were about 16 Ganarajyas in India at that time.
India has 30 living calendars. Lunar, Luni-solar and solar. So what is the problem in having a different calendar in Tamilnadu?
"The committee had to undertake a detailed study of thirty different calendars prevalent in different parts of the country."
Indian national calendar - Wikipedia, Gaṇasaṅgha - Wikipedia,

What I underlined in your post is not always true. The astronomers calculate the dates in different calendars. Those who follow that particular system accept it. People do not calculate those dates on their own.
People generally stick to their tradition. For example, in our small community of Kashmiri brahmins (less than 500,000 all over the world), we follow two kinds of calendars. Some have the month's beginning with new moon, others have the month's beginning with full moon.

 

[River Sea]

@GoodAttention wanted to research two societies of patriarchal and matriarchal

However, I'm not sure what happened with the Aryan and Dravidian. Actually, I'm lost on what happened and didn't get a chance to ask @GoodAttention So my apologies to @GoodAttention

@GoodAttention wrote quote:

I am the product of both histories, male and female, Aryan and Dravidian. I do not shun one to shine the other, but I use both my eyes to see, and truth should be acknowledged no matter how painful.

I'll continue:
I learned two words: deductive logic and inductive reasoning. I can't remember what YouTube video this comment came from.

I could turn this into a question, @GoodAttention. What was more matriarchal patriarchal? Would deductive logic and inductive reasoning be more of

 

[River Sea]

I still don't know when Matriarchal and Patriarchal happened

the stone age has building temples and you @GoodAttention explain no temple buildings during matriarchal. This makes no sense at all about matriarchal patriarchal, society, it makes no sense.

@GoodAttention this makes no sense at all

 

[River Sea]

@GoodAttention

About language leaving out the word 'violence' from the enemy called 'dust storms' that happened in the year 2015 AD (I made sure not to have the word violence).

Dust storm kills at least seven, many houses damaged in Rajasthan

A severe dust storm, coupled with light rain, swept vast swathes of north India on Tuesday afternoon killing at least seven persons in Rajasthan and damaging several houses.

www.firstpost.com

Dust storm kills at least seven, many houses damaged in Rajasthan​

A severe dust storm, coupled with light rain, swept vast swathes of north India on Tuesday afternoon killing at least seven persons in Rajasthan and damaging several houses.

(I'm writing here: there's no word violence, but if there were, there's no humans causing violence, but if there were this word violence, could this word also be used from nature situations? It is a question I have.)

Back to the article

New Delhi: A severe dust storm, coupled with light rain, swept vast swathes of north India on Tuesday afternoon killing at least seven persons in Rajasthan and damaging several houses.

The storm killed at least seven persons – five in Bharatpur and two in Bikaner – and injured many others, police said, adding that many houses were damaged and trees uprooted in rural areas. However, the exact extent of damage was yet to be ascertain.

I'm writing

What are dust storms compared to other kinds of storms

I'll give you an example of storms

Known as a storm god who wielded a thunderbolt in his hands. Who and Why?

If you know who and why, have you ever experienced a conversation with a storm god who wielded a thunderbolt in his hand, and how come his? What about her hand?

The word god has many meanings

I understand people as gods however maybe the word god can be used in other ways as well, such as storm god?

What was known as a storm god who wielded a thunderbolt in his hand? I also asked, have you ever experienced a conversation with a storm god?

Is this patriarchal matriarchal or a combination, what was a dust storm with in what type of society?

 

[RabbiO]

@River Sea -

The word violent has been commonly used to describe certain types of weather. As for dust storms, I googled “dust storms” and came up with many sites explaining about that phenomenon. Maybe you could do that?

 

[GoodAttention]

I still don't know when Matriarchal and Patriarchal happened

the stone age has building temples and you @GoodAttention explain no temple buildings during matriarchal. This makes no sense at all about matriarchal patriarchal, society, it makes no sense.

@GoodAttention this makes no sense at all

Hi @River Sea

The video I posted in comment #64 about the Indus Valley Civilization describes a society that does not appear to be partriarchal/Dorian type.

I think the IVC potentially branched off from the Sumerian civilization (like the Cain story in the Hebrew scriptures), to start their own society. Yes, matriarchal society is difficult to understand but I think the IVC is the best ancient example of one.

 

[GoodAttention]

@GoodAttention what are the areas you agree or disagree with what Mahi wrote at Quora, so I can learn.

the word “Neela”, which signifies ‘blue’ in both Sanskrit and Tamil.

Look how Mahi uses the word loanwords

Although Tamil is entirely different from Sanskrit and possesses a full vocabulary of its own words for Sanskrit loan words, I am not entirely convinced that it can be used effectively in today’s world.

Quora
Mahi knows Tamil

My Tamil friend say I can speak his language without using any Sanskrit word. But is this true since clearly no language has enough vocabulary for everything, especially the delicately complex and deeply abstract terms of which Sanskrit abounds?
My Tamil friend say I can speak his language without using any Sanskrit word. But is this true since clearly no language has enough vocab...
My Tamil friend say I can speak his language without using any Sanskrit word. But is this true since clearly no language has enough vocab...

Mahi
Born as TamilMay 9
I would assert that the statement holds 95 percent veracity when one applies concerted effort, but it does not stand true under typical exertion. As a native Tamil speaker with a rudimentary understanding of Sanskrit, I am capable of distinguishing Sanskrit words from Tamil, a skill that many native Tamil speakers may lack.
Consider the word “Neela”, which signifies ‘blue’ in both Sanskrit and Tamil. The natural inclination for many is to categorise it as a Sanskrit word. However, based on linguistic syllables, I personally believe it could also be Tamil. There is a slight possibility that a minuscule amount of vocabulary has been incorporated into Sanskrit, but this is negligible compared to the number of Sanskrit loan words present in Tamil.
Take, for instance, the Tamil word “suthanthiram”, which is evidently derived from the Sanskrit word “svatantra”. There can be no dispute about this from anyone possessing a basic understanding of the linguistic relationship between these two languages.
There was a time when Sanskrit served as the lingua franca in the Indian subcontinent, and perhaps even beyond. This could explain the similarities between Sanskrit and Latin, Germanic languages, or Romance languages. Sanskrit was utilised for political, linguistic, and spiritual purposes, not just within the Indo-Gangetic Plains, but also across the larger continent, and notably within South India. It is evident that Sanskrit scholars in Tamil Nadu and Kerala are often more proficient in Sanskrit than their northern counterparts.
Just as English is used as the lingua franca in today’s world, Sanskrit was used in the Indian subcontinent. Consequently, many words entered the daily lexicon of Tamil speakers. We can observe a similar effect today with English words being incorporated into Tamil and other Indian languages, which is quite normal.
However, there is no denying the fact that Tamil is indeed a separate and unique language from Sanskrit. But inevitably, due to the popularity and usage of Sanskrit among Tamils, numerous loan words have been introduced, despite Tamil being entirely unique and belonging to a separate Dravidian family.
Now, if we consider the previously explained loan word “suthanthiram” (which is Tatbhava), what is the exact Tamil word that can be used? Many would argue that we could use “Viduthalai”, but I don’t believe that “Viduthalai” carries the exact same connotation and meaning as “Suthanthiram”. Could there be another word that has been omitted from our Tamil vocabulary? I am uncertain.
Although Tamil is entirely different from Sanskrit and possesses a full vocabulary of its own words for Sanskrit loan words, I am not entirely convinced that it can be used effectively in today’s world.

If I am understanding the question correctly, then yes I agree with what this poster has concluded.

In practical terms, the Tamil language as it is spoken and used in society is filled with Sanskrit influence, starting with 4 Sanskritized letters added to the alphabet. The vocabulary contains many words derived from Sanskrit, with the Vedic influence being the most significant. Looking at the days of the week one can see there is an oddity to the naming, but once you recognize it is Vedic influence it makes sense.

For example, Tamils will call the sun "Surya" but will not be aware of the Tamil name Kathiravan. Same for the moon "Chandra" when the Tamil name is Nila.

However I disagree that the Tamil language requires any Sanskrit words to function even in todays world, but doing so would be difficult.

 

[GoodAttention]

I can only make guesses, I revised dividing the word to instead look at the whole word

மெலுக்கு​

melukku n. மெலுக்குவை. 1.Exquisiteness; tenderness; மென்மை.


If not describing the place where the fine goods were coming from, it could also be describing their pacifist society.


Magan in interesting, if it is considered to have been settled by peoples from the Indus Valley.

மாகாணம்​

mākāṇam n. U. makān. 1.District, province; தேசப்பகுதி. 2. Division of ataluk, consisting of several villages, under themanagement of one Karnam (R. F.); ஒரு கர்ணத்தின் விசாரணைக்கீழ்உள்ள பல கிராமங்களடங்கியபிரதேசம். 3. Group of dependants gatheredfor a common purpose; சனக்கட்டு. ஆள்மாகாணம்.


Dilmun I did separate into Thil and Munnu

தில்​

til . A particle found in ancient poetry expressing. 1. Desire, as பெறுசதில், to obtain. 2. Time, as பெற்றாங்கறிகதில்லம்மவிள்ளு ரே, when (you) reach the country, enjoy it.

மன்னு​

mṉṉu


Dilmun as a place to obtain ever-lasting life seems appropriate given how it is described.

Just to elaborate further on Dilmun, I believe this is potentially how it would have been referred to

mṉṉu

மன்னுயிர், s. Human life, the soul as surviving death,

பெறுசதில்மன்னுயிர்

Three letters at the beginning and end, leaving "Tilmun" or "Thilmun" in the middle.

 

[GoodAttention]

Returning to Meluhha​

​

மெலுக்கு​

melukku n. மெலுக்குவை. 1.Exquisiteness; tenderness; மென்மை.


Returning to the word or name used by Sumerians to describe the Indus Valley Civilization, I considered how such a word would be used in context. One word for describing the source of a good, particularly when it is being acquired is the following

உற்பத்தி​

uṟpatti * n. ut-patti. Birth,origin, derivation;



However, the word for item is also very similar sounding, so to describe an item of exquisiteness the following could be used

உருப்படி​

uruppaṭi 2. Article of value, useful thing


So to say an item is exquisite could also sound like "exquisite" is the name of where it comes from. Adding the "uur" that starts both words could also be confused when it follows melukku.

Notes on Magan​

This one is more straight-forward, given the understanding that Magan was established by peoples from the IVC to build ships. It would have been the first "boys-club" adventure, with men who were skilled setting up their outpost on the Arabian coastline.

(ஆள்)மாகாணம்​

3. Group of dependants gathered for a common purpose; சனக்கட்டு. ஆள்மாகாணம்.

The first 2 letters explained further

ஆள்​

āḷ n. ஆள்-. [K. M. Tu. āl.] 1.Man; ஆண்மகன்

So the word above combined is specifically for a male group that has a common purpose.



The following word is also interesting

(ஆண்)மகன்​

āṇ-makaṉ n. id. +. 1. Son;ஆண்குழந்தை. 2. Man;

It translates to Man-son, which sounds confusing but is emphasizing the "Man" aspect to say manly son.

The āḷ described before also translates to man, but in a generic sense of the word.


I theorize that the men of Magan could have used the term āṇ-makaṉ when talking about themselves, as well as āṇ-mākāṇam to describe their new settlement to be "for the men, of the manly men". However, the context of Magan remains son, so in effect the settlement is a son of their "motherland" in the Indus Valley or coastline.

 

[GoodAttention]

As there was mention of the significance of numbers in another thread, I will attempt to provide the same for the Tamil language.


The first letter, ஃ which I call the God letter, stands alone. It is special because its presence can be both hidden and obvious, representing neither a vowel or consonant, but a gutteral sound from the back of the throat. It could be said the first sound, and therefore becomes the sign of God. It represents the number 1.

The soul letters as mentioned earlier are the vowels, total 12, or 2x3x2.

The body letters, which I describe as consonants, total 18, or 3x2x3.

When the vowel and consonant are combined to make syllables, this total is 216. Interestingly 216 could be considerd 1^3 x 2^3 x 3^3.


I mentioned earlier that 217 has significance, and is explained as humanity. This is the combination of 216 (as derived from the soul and body letters) with the first letter.

217 differs from 216 in that it represents humanity when God is added to the count. We can also "derive" a relationship as follows,


(God letter + Soul letters + Body letters) (31) x 7 = Humanity (217)


The significance of the number 7 is that it represents each birth a person will experience. Sitting in-between a YOLO and infinite birth (as expressed by the Vedic teaching), the number 7 I see as the best of both. We do not know if we are living our first or last, but at the same time we are not constrained by attempting to understand the infinite.

With each birth the argument to live a "good" life has personal motivation in that one can return to a "better" world. It also "reasons" suffering, in that one who does suffer can have solace in the belief that this will be their last life before they return to God. It is reincarnation with limits, which I see as a reflection of a Ionian society or mentality.


The total number of letters in the Tamil alphabet is 247. We can derive a reflection of each "step" of the Tamil Genesis story as follows,


(God) x (God + soul letters) x (God + body letters) = Alphabet (language) within which God is the center.

1 x (1 + 12) x (1 + 18) = 247


I find the use of prime numbers, within the humanity and language equations such as 1, 7, 13, 19, and 31 to be of interest.

Exploring the 13 Generations of Human-kind further...

I will simplify as much as possible, because I would like to show the mathematical aspect of the Tamil language.


1st Generation (Soul)
12 people, 4 male, 8 female


2nd Generation (Truth)
18 people, 9 male, 9 female

I think I have explained this clearly as above.



Now moving onto the 216 "members" and how they were "derived" over 4 generations

3rd Generation (1st of Humanity)
Each of the 9 mothers of the previous generation give birth to 3 children, totalling 27 people.

There are 12 males, and 15 females in this time period, and as such 3 men would have 2 wives.
I believe the significance of this is to show the importance of motherhood, as well as being worthy husbands.
The focus here is on the men doing a good deed, not acting out of emotion.

I draw comparison to Lamech of Cain's line.


4th Generation (2nd of Humanity)
Each of the 15 mothers of the previous generation gives birth to 3 children, totalling 45 people

There are 24 males and 21 females, and as such 3 men would have remained unwed and childless.
I believe the significance of this is firstly to balance the previous generation, but also more importantly to allow some men to spend time seeking other activities that could help society.


5th Generation (3rd of Humanity)
Each of the 21 mothers of the previous generation gives birth to 3 children, totalling 63 people

There are 36 males and 27 females, and as such 9 men would have remained unwed and childless.
This is a continuation of the previous generation, and I see this as a positive sign. It now also brings a "surplus" of 5 men over the course of the 5 generations so far.


6th Generation (4th of Humanity)
Each of the 27 mothers of the previous generation gives birth to 3 children, totalling 81 people.

At this point, we now have a total of 216 people.

To balance the male and female numbers of the 6 generations, we have 43 females and 38 males. We now return to some men, in this case 5, having two wives as was similar 3 generations prior. This is the last of the "written" human ancestors, and so begins the generation of humankind.


1st for Human-kind (7th Generation)

Each of the 43 mothers of the previous generation gives birth to 3 children, totalling 129 people.

This first of these children is "Mother Tamil", the person who brings the knowledge of language so that she can share with the human family. Although reverred, I believe it important to consider her to be a person. I believe the female descendant of Lamech Naamah, or "Mother of Tongues" if the name is translated in Tamil, is a direct reference to Mother Tamil. This would make Tupul-Kan a brother and also a potential connection to the Tamil language.

A short segway -

துப்பு​

tuppu n. cf. tu. 1. Vigour,strength, valour; வலி கெடலருந் துப்பின் (அகநா.105). 2. Intelligence; அறிவு 3. Ability, dexterity; சாமர்த்தியம் ஆழ்கடலைக் கடைந்த துப்பனே(திவ். திருவாய். 4, 7, 5). 4. Effort, activity;முயற்சி. (பிங்.) 5. Zeal; உற்சாகம் (பிங்.) 6.Greatness, eminence; பெருமை துப்பழிந் துய்வதுதுறக்கந் துன்னவோ (கம்பரா. உருக்காட். 15). 7.Good, benefit; நன்மை துப்பாய துப்பாக்கி(குறள், 12). 8. Beauty; பொலிவு (பிங்.) 9. Support; பற்றுக்கோடு துன்பத்துட் டுப்பாயார் நட்பு(குறள், 106). 10. Assistance, help; துணை (பிங்.)11. Means, instrument; துணைக்கருவி (சூடா.)வேதினத் துப்பவும் (சிலப். 14, 176). 12. Weapon;ஆயுதப்பொது. (யாழ். அக.) 13. Manner, fashion;தன்மை. சுந்தரச் சுடரோர் மூன்றுந் தோற்றியதுப்பிற் றோற்ற (இரகு. திக்குவி. 43).


Going back to the generation, we now have 64 males and 64 females, and they would be considered our direct ancestors. The number is also perfect since it can be written as 2^6, which allows to easily derive the next 6 generations when multiplying by 3 and dividing by 2.


(7th Generation) 1st for Human-kind: 129 people, and 64 mothers, and Mother Tamil

(8th Generation) 2nd for Human-kind: 192 people, and 96 mothers
(9th Generation) 3rd for Human-kind: 288 people, and 144 mothers
(10th Generation) 4th for Human-kind: 432 people, and 216 mothers
(11th Generation) 5th for Human-kind: 648 people, and 324 mothers
(12th Generation) 6th for Human-kind: 972 people, and 486 mothers
(13th Generation) 7th for Human-kind: 1458 people, and 729 mothers

Since we are now ending on an odd number at 729, the patterns of simply multiplying by 3 and dividing by 2 comes to an end.

You can see how, if visualized graphically with God at the beginning, there are 6 derivations before the 7th where Mother Tamil is born, followed by another 6 generations. She effectively sits at the center-point as a mathematical representation of language.



2 Generations of Soul and Truth, 4 Generations of Humanity, and 7 Generations of Human-kind

We return again to the number 247, the total of the Tamil alphabet.