Desert Snake
Veteran Member
She understands this subject a lot better than you do.
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Ask a Catholic
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She understands this subject a lot better than you do.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yeah, unlike that religion that believes god sits on a throne in the sky near the star/planet Kolob, and is married; his wife known as the Heavenly Mother. And that when Jesus returns to Earth he's heading to Missouri because . . . . . . . .because . . . . because he wants to see the Gateway Arch I guess. Or maybe it's the Anheuser-Busch Brewery.
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I was questioning it because that didn't sound like any Mormon I've ever talked to.
I asked because I usually regret it when I jump to conclusions. Sometimes I think it's best to just wait and see.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
@Shiranui117 and @First Baseman
@Serenity Now in his reply #309 explains it better than I did.
Serenity Now:
How can any Catholic overlook that?
Also, in the CCC it says:
The whole Church is apostolic...and in that she is "sent out" into the whole world. All the members lf the Church share the same mission. 863
The Church is based on the "ministry" (mission) of the Apostles. It does not say the cornerstone are the Apostles. Im sure even they know their ministry and vocation are not based on their teachings but that of Christ.
If the Church understands this according to the CCC and Bible, why not some Catholics?
Are you expressing it differently?
Im at a loss.
@Serenity Now in his reply #309 explains it better than I did.
Serenity Now:
Carlita,
In a way you are both correct. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ and he built it on the works of Peter and the Apostles (who became the first Bishops of the Church).
The heart and soul of Catholicism is the Mass, which is a Eucharistic celebration. Without the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist there is no Catholic Church. The real presence of Christ is in every single Catholic Church every single day (except today, Good Friday, when the sacrament is removed as a reminder of his death). There is no presence of Peter so Christ is the Church.
According to this, I am right and it makes more sense. The ministry (works of Peter) are the Church and her traditions. The cornerstone of the Church is not Peter; it is Christ.In a way you are both correct. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ and he built it on the works of Peter and the Apostles (who became the first Bishops of the Church).
The heart and soul of Catholicism is the Mass, which is a Eucharistic celebration. Without the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist there is no Catholic Church. The real presence of Christ is in every single Catholic Church every single day (except today, Good Friday, when the sacrament is removed as a reminder of his death). There is no presence of Peter so Christ is the Church.
How can any Catholic overlook that?
Also, in the CCC it says:
The whole Church is apostolic...and in that she is "sent out" into the whole world. All the members lf the Church share the same mission. 863
The Church is based on the "ministry" (mission) of the Apostles. It does not say the cornerstone are the Apostles. Im sure even they know their ministry and vocation are not based on their teachings but that of Christ.
If the Church understands this according to the CCC and Bible, why not some Catholics?
Are you expressing it differently?
Im at a loss.
Serenity Now
Member
Carlita,
Your both right I just think the semantics are a little confusing but the overall theology of both parties is sound.
Book of Acts 4:8-11 :
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11 Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone."
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Book of Revelations 21:10-14 :
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.11 It shone with the glory of God,and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Your both right I just think the semantics are a little confusing but the overall theology of both parties is sound.
Book of Acts 4:8-11 :
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11 Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone."
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Book of Revelations 21:10-14 :
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.11 It shone with the glory of God,and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Peter is the rock. I mean peter means Rock, literally. Thats why he is called peter.
You are right when you say that the church should be built on the Christ, thats my belief, I could be wrong. But your statement is very logical.
The Rock thing cannot be the Christ. Its Peter.
Errm. I wonder if I made any sense.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I build this Rock is Jesus saying I build the Church of heaven and nothing of hell will prevail against it. Peterx since you answered as the Father has told you, I give you the keys to the Kingdom of heaven.
Im assuming R- ock means The Kingdom of Heaven and r- ock means Peter who is the child who holds the keys of his immentence into heaven.
Thats how I interpreted rock in relation to what Christ's Church. Why do Catholic members insist that the Church is from Peter when the CCC says the Church promotes (lack of better words) the mission of the Apostles (Peter included) but its all based on Who the Apostles did their mission for, not of themselves and their teachings but that of Christ?
Am I missing something?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Explain why "the rock thing" cannot be Jesus when Jesus is many times called "the rock". Peter means "a small stone". Jesus is the rock.
Serenity Now
Member
Couple of things:
1. There is no separation of the Church in Heaven and on Earth. The communion of Saints is an example as is that Christ gave Peter (and the Church through apostolic succession) the power to bind things on earth which will be bound in Heaven.
2. Peter and the apostles have no power but that which is given through Christ.
Peter is the "rock" but Christ is the cornerstone; if that makes sense.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Psalms 18:2 The Lord is my rock. Also Psalms92:15 I Samuel 2:2 2 Samuel 22:47 and many more. None say anything about Peter being a rock.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Yes. I said exactly this on another reply I think to you and a few others or someone else.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Some what. If my name means "President" and our US president is Obama, and the succession of past presidents is Obama, why would any US citizen (or how) mix up who the president is because my name means the title he is called?
That, and when the government formally ellected him as president, it was not Me who received presidency just because my name means that. It was Obama. The next line of presidency since before George Washington is Obama.
No one mixes up the authority or Rock to whom elected Obama.
No one mixed up who Obama is now that he is president
No one considers me president just because my name means the title the government did not hand me.
As a US citizen, we have missions to promote US rights and defend our country, but the presidence help lay structure to the foundation of our country (taking out the history Ps and Qs just making a point).
That is the exact same thing with Peter, Rock, rock, Christ, Chuch, and Scripture.
Im hoping the Catholics here are getting what Im saying. I got annoyed and looked it up in the CCC. I did a post with that too.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Im just reading this. Didnt get an alert.
Why are some Catholics saying the foundation of the Church is from Peter when Peter and the Apostles built the structure of the Church but the foundation is Christ?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
When you only hear one thing all your life you tend to believe it. If you are willing to investigate and consider new ideas you may learn something. Catholics only hear one side all their lives so they do not even consider any other possibility.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Good point.
But, Peter is not his name right. His name is Simon.
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter (Petros), and on this rock (Petra) I will build my church, and the gates of death will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Thus, Jesus did say that he will build HIS church on Petra or the Rock Mass.
As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew.
Petron is Simons nickname. I know that you know this.
And I tell you that you are Peter (Petros), and on this rock (Petra) I will build my church (ekklesian).
Peace.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Yes, but petros means a small stone and petra means a large rock. Two different words and one is masculine and one is feminine. Jesus used two different words to show He was talking about two different things. Peter is a small stone or a small part of the church while the church is built on the large rock of Jesus.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Yes.
But Petra does not mean large rock in the sense of a 'large rock'. literally it means a large mass of rock. Its connected or a place where you can build something. A ledge.
Petros means a stone not connected like a ledge or part of the earth. ITs something you would throw.
But that does not mean that it is two different things. Jesus calls Simon, Petros and immediately says on this Petra I will build my congregation. According to strong, petra is a metophorical reference to a rocklike man or a strong man.
Nevertheless, Jesus does say "MY Congragation". Its not Peters congregation (Or Church).
firedragon
Veteran Member
BTW, Carlita. Who is in that picture of yours? Ive always wondered. One amazing enticing picture. That lady is simply gorgeous.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Yeah. I looked up Gypsy in google and found her image. Pulled me in. Something about her eyes and skin tone.
She is gorgeous though no one I know.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Simply gorgeous. I see many of them though, they speak a weird language. They dress like that. But this lady is gorgeous.
You know something? These Gypsy tribes go about making small money doing various things like soothsaying, palm reading and animal shows etc. But they very rarely steal, even though they are living a life of true poverty. Thats why their eyes look like they do.
I am not kidding.
Errm, okay I think I got carried away in a thread about catholicism.
Over and out.