Ask About Islam

[Sheldon]

Not really. You don't understand this issue properly. I suggest taking any course that deals with the issue of morality.

Are there different courses then? Or do they all agree?

Is homosexuality and gay marriage good, or bad?

Do take your time...

 

[Link]

Are there different courses then? Or do they all agree?

Is homosexuality and gay marriage good, or bad?

Do take your time...

The point is there is only one right answer to your question. Otherwise, there is no reason to even dialogue about it.

 

[Sheldon]

You gave a big list. I suggest picking one or two, or otherwise it's spitfire fallacy to try to overwhelm with many claims instead of dealing with one or two. This is because the person may feel there is bound to be one that is right by sheer numbers, but this is proven to be a tactic, that is a fallacy as well.

Since you made a sweeping claim, just one error would be enough, and the fact there is a long list rather demonstrates your claim was wrong. However you could start with the age of universe being 13.8 billion years and humans evolving just 200k years ago, while the Quran seems to have plagiarised another creation myth that states it all happened in 6 days. that's a massive error on any scale, that usually has believers rushing for rationalisations involving metaphor or allegory, or flat denials of scientific facts.

 

[Sheldon]

The point is there is only one right answer to your question. Otherwise, there is no reason to even dialogue about it.

Please tell me you're being ironic? Since the exact opposite is the case, one would hardly need any dialogue if there were only one answer. Did they charge you for this course, maybe a refund is in order?

Is eating pork good or bad, since there is only one answer, and not subjective opinion, one assumes everyone agrees right?

 

[Link]

Since you made a sweeping claim, just one error would be enough, and the fact there is a long list rather demonstrates your claim was wrong. However you could start with the age of universe being 13.8 billion years and humans evolving just 200k years ago, while the Quran seems to have plagiarised another creation myth that states it all happened in 6 days. that's a massive error on any scale, that usually has believers rushing for rationalisations involving metaphor or allegory, or flat denials of scientific facts.

It's not about rushing to metaphor, is that it always did mean metaphor.

The 6 days

Before going into this we have to see some of metaphors in Quran, to get familiar context.

Earth as darkness and selfishness and lust

And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant. (6:35)


My comment: Obviously there is a link to bringing the ultimate sign of his Nubuwa and Authority (Mohammad), with the meaning of opening into the earth or a ladder to heaven/sky, so we see heaven/sky and earth can have metaphorically understanding. This can't be literal, so there is a meaning. Going down suggests earth represents darkness and low nature of a human. This while heaven/sky represents the light reality the heart is linked to.

Had We wished, We would have surely raised him by their means, but he clung to the earth and followed his [base] desires. So his parable is that of a dog: if you make for it, it lolls out its tongue, and if you let it alone, it lolls out its tongue. Such is the parable of the people who deny Our signs. So recount these narratives, so that they may reflect. (7:176)

My comment: following his desires is obviously synonymous here with clinging to the earth showing earth has a metaphoric meaning with lower nature of the human spiritual kingdom.

Heaven/Sky where lights are found

13And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while, 14They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people. 15And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders. 16And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan, 17But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

My comment: A long with the first verse I quoted, we see not only is heaven a place where the lights of guidance are found, but ultimately, the heaven/sky reality is guarded from every devil. The visible flame that follows intruders suggests the stars of guidance are living beings guarding this realm.

7 Earths 7 Heavens mirror each other

It is Allah who has created seven heavens, and of the earth [a number] similar to them. The command descends through them, that you may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends all things in knowledge. (End of Surah Talaq)

My comment: We see heaven and earth mirror each other in this respect. This a major illusion, it's about light and darkness aspects of a human.

The morning and 10 nights and pair and single

In Surah Fajr the night has been according to some hadiths, seen as a metaphor of Imams (a) being veiled and their reality and proof become less vivid and clear.

It can be seen as a warning, because the verses after, are talking about how God dealt with oppressive nations. It can be seen in that light, if the lights have become veiled due to oppression towards truth, then God's wrath may take place like past destroyed nations.

The fajr (morning) is said to be Imam Mahdi (a) according to the hadith. The 10 nights Hassan (the 2nd Imam) to Hassan (the 11th). The pair being Ali (a) and Fatima (s). And the single/alone being Mohammad (s).

It can be seen this is if things go wrong. Now I am saying this because Quran has analogies and metaphors of night so that we can discuss in light of this what "6 days" means.

The 6 days as metaphors of leaving darkness towards light.

It can be seen every time we leave one veil of darkness, light is unveiled, but no darkness is without light. And so after the 6th tearing, the final veil is when "God establishes himself on the throne (of the heart)".

This can be seen that 7 earths are stages, 7th earth is when we finally enter to the sky reality and light, which then has 7 veils of light.

The Quran in this way is describing the journey of the first human Adam (a) when describing the creation of earth and heavens.

 

[Sheldon]

Is homosexuality and gay marriage good, or bad?

Do take your time...

The point is there is only one right answer to your question. Otherwise, there is no reason to even dialogue about it.

Oh, so everyone agree with me then, that gay marriage is a good thing, and being gay is a perfectly natural and harmless variation of adult sexual desire?

You are funny.

 

[Link]

Oh, so everyone agree with me then, that gay marriage is a good thing, and being gay is a perfectly natural and harmless variation of adult sexual desire?

You are funny.

People can be wrong, is the point. Subjective no one is wrong or right.

 

[Sheldon]

It's not about rushing to metaphor, is that it always did mean metaphor.

The 6 days

Before going into this we have to see some of metaphors in Quran, to get familiar context.

Earth as darkness and selfishness and lust

And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant. (6:35)


My comment: Obviously there is a link to bringing the ultimate sign of his Nubuwa and Authority (Mohammad), with the meaning of opening into the earth or a ladder to heaven/sky, so we see heaven/sky and earth can have metaphorically understanding. This can't be literal, so there is a meaning. Going down suggests earth represents darkness and low nature of a human. This while heaven/sky represents the light reality the heart is linked to.

Had We wished, We would have surely raised him by their means, but he clung to the earth and followed his [base] desires. So his parable is that of a dog: if you make for it, it lolls out its tongue, and if you let it alone, it lolls out its tongue. Such is the parable of the people who deny Our signs. So recount these narratives, so that they may reflect. (7:176)

My comment: following his desires is obviously synonymous here with clinging to the earth showing earth has a metaphoric meaning with lower nature of the human spiritual kingdom.

Heaven/Sky where lights are found

13And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while, 14They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people. 15And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders. 16And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan, 17But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

My comment: A long with the first verse I quoted, we see not only is heaven a place where the lights of guidance are found, but ultimately, the heaven/sky reality is guarded from every devil. The visible flame that follows intruders suggests the stars of guidance are living beings guarding this realm.

7 Earths 7 Heavens mirror each other

It is Allah who has created seven heavens, and of the earth [a number] similar to them. The command descends through them, that you may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends all things in knowledge. (End of Surah Talaq)

My comment: We see heaven and earth mirror each other in this respect. This a major illusion, it's about light and darkness aspects of a human.

The morning and 10 nights and pair and single

In Surah Fajr the night has been according to some hadiths, seen as a metaphor of Imams (a) being veiled and their reality and proof become less vivid and clear.

It can be seen as a warning, because the verses after, are talking about how God dealt with oppressive nations. It can be seen in that light, if the lights have become veiled due to oppression towards truth, then God's wrath may take place like past destroyed nations.

The fajr (morning) is said to be Imam Mahdi (a) according to the hadith. The 10 nights Hassan (the 2nd Imam) to Hassan (the 11th). The pair being Ali (a) and Fatima (s). And the single/alone being Mohammad (s).

It can be seen this is if things go wrong. Now I am saying this because Quran has analogies and metaphors of night so that we can discuss in light of this what "6 days" means.

The 6 days as metaphors of leaving darkness towards light.

It can be seen every time we leave one veil of darkness, light is unveiled, but no darkness is without light. And so after the 6th tearing, the final veil is when "God establishes himself on the throne (of the heart)".

This can be seen that 7 earths are stages, 7th earth is when we finally enter to the sky reality and light, which then has 7 veils of light.

The Quran in this way is describing the journey of the first human Adam (a) when describing the creation of earth and heavens.

So a deity with limitless intelligence to create a message, and limitless power to communicate it, can't get any closer to 13.8 billion years than 6 days? Or any closer to explaining hundreds of millions of years of species evolution, than an instant of inexplicable magic, creating humans in their current form, and from clay.

It's errant nonsense, as is your sweeping claim to know that the Quran is true. That's just your subjective opinion, and not a very compelling one given the mental cartwheels you just used to try and wave away the ludicrous errors in its creation myth.

 

[Link]

So a deity with limitless intelligence to create a message, and limitless power to communicate it, can't get any closer to 13.8 billion years than 6 days? Or any closer to explaining hundreds of millions of years of species evolution, than an instant of inexplicable magic, creating humans in their current form, and from clay.

It's errant nonsense, as is your sweeping claim to know that the Quran is true. That's just your subjective opinion, and not a very compelling one given the mental cartwheels you just used to try and wave away the ludicrous errors in its creation myth.

Please read what I posted carefully.

 

[Sheldon]

People can be wrong, is the point. Subjective no one is wrong or right.

Ah I see, so when you claimed good and bad were not subjective, you were simply making a subjective claim that your ideas of good and bad are right, and everyone who disagree with you wrong. Thought so...

Good and bad are subjective concepts, unless you can demonstrate sufficient objective evidence they are not? I just offered a simple question, that amply demonstrated people have differing opinion on whether something is good or bad. The idea you can wave this away by claiming your religion claims differently is not a compelling argument.

Is abortion right or wrong? Is it right or wrong to draw a picture portraying Mohammed? Is it ever right for an adult man to have sex with a nine year old girl?

Seriously if a professor of philosophy told you right and wrong are objective ideas, demand a refund for the course, but I have to say, that I am very dubious about your claim. Si the claim linked to any online citation from an accredited university?

 

[Link]

Ah I see, so when you claimed good and bad were not subjective, you were simply making a subjective claim that your ideas of good and bad are right, and everyone who disagree with you wrong. Thought so...

Good and bad are subjective concepts, unless you can demonstrate sufficient objective evidence they are not? I just offered a simple question, that amply demonstrated people have differing opinion on whether something is good or bad. The idea you can wave this away by claiming your religion claims differently is not a compelling argument.

Is abortion right or wrong? Is it right or wrong to draw a picture portraying Mohammed? Is it ever right for an adult man to have sex with a nine year old girl?

Seriously if a professor of philosophy told you right and wrong are objective ideas, demand a refund for the course, but I have to say, that I am very dubious about your claim. Si the claim linked to any online citation from an accredited university?

You have a hard time grasping that people can be wrong and there is a right answer. Morality is not like food, some people think vanilla tastes better and some people chocolate, where there is no right or wrong. There is a right or wrong answer to every moral question.

 

[Sheldon]

Please read what I posted carefully.

I did, it seems you have no worthwhile response to my objection.

 

[Link]

I did, it seems you have no worthwhile response to my objection.

Maybe, devils makes you see what you want to see. In any case, I tried to help you there.

 

[Link]

It doesn't make sense to dialogue about Islam anyways with atheists if they don't even acknowledge God. The first thing is get to God, then we can discuss who are his Messengers.

 

[Sheldon]

You have a hard time grasping that people can be wrong and there is a right answer.

No, that is a dishonest straw man you just created, though judging from how often you resort to these, you do have a hard time understanding the significance of basing a claim or argument on a known logical fallacy.

Morality is not like food, some people think vanilla tastes better and some people chocolate, where there is no right or wrong.

Well there you go, another straw man, this time in the form of an analogy.

There is a right or wrong answer to every moral question.

No there isn't, that just demonstrates a facile understanding of morality. We may be able to reach a consensus, but morality can be a complex issue.

Is it ever ok to knowingly murder someone you don't even know, without meeting them or knowing anything about them?

Is it morally acceptable to let several people die, that you have never met and know nothing about, when you could save them, again if there is a right answer, perhaps you can enthral me with your acumen? Since you think I am unable to understand the concept of morality.

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe, devils makes you see what you want to see. In any case, I tried to help you there.

Ah, a no true Scotsman fallacy, I'm not sure that's the best response at this point, but you are of course free to express yourself with irrational hand waving if you are minded to so. At least that is my subjective opinion anyway, that is not an opinion shared by everyone of course.

 

[Sheldon]

It doesn't make sense to dialogue about Islam anyways with atheists if they don't even acknowledge God.

Under what circumstances do you envisage an atheist acknowledging the existence of a deity?

The first thing is get to God, then we can discuss who are his Messengers.

Ah, cunning in its simplicity, in order to properly debate your beliefs, you first must insist those debating them share those beliefs, I wonder that other Muslims haven't suppressed dissention in such a fashion? Oh wait??

 

[Link]

Under what circumstances do you envisage an atheist acknowledging the existence of a deity?



Ah, cunning in its simplicity, in order to properly debate your beliefs, you first must insist those debating them share those beliefs, I wonder that other Muslims haven't suppressed dissention in such a fashion? Oh wait??

Okay, my counter: Why aren't you debating pagan or new age beliefs or left handed spirituality people. Why are atheists so focused on Christianity and Islam?

 

[Sheldon]

Okay, my counter: Why aren't you debating pagan or new age beliefs or left handed spirituality people.

Who says I haven't?

Why are atheists so focused on Christianity and Islam?

Well I can't speak for other atheists of course, but I find all unevidenced superstitions equally vapid, if that helps. Though of course this is just an example of whataboutism you're using to deflect from addressing what I posted.

In human morality, good and bad are not nor can they be absolutes, they are based on subjective perceptions. Yours that a deity has laid absolute laws for us to follow is a subjective belief, and even with Islam there are differing subjective opinions about morality, which rather proves the point.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes I can.
I know it is circular logic. That is my argument.
I only believe those that can show me that they can speak inside the circle.
If they dont speak inside the circle then they are just making things up. They are alone and not part of the group that speaks as one.

Mohammad speaks inside the circle. So I have accepted him as a prophet.

But Baha'u'llah does not speak inside the circle. Even though he says he speaks for God his words show he is not a prophet. He uses religious wording but doesnt show he knows the circle.

True prophets speak in symbols.
Their words are symbolic but not open to interpretation. They mean what they say.

They are all speaking symbols into positions of the circle.

I don't think you know what circular logic means, or the logical inference of someone using it.