Ask About Islam

[Link]

Who says I haven't?

If you have it's not as noticeable as you guys attacking Islam and Christianity. You particularly are angry at us and not them, why is that the case?

 

[Sheldon]

KWED said: ↑
Your analogy fails because the act of using female captives for sex is explicitly allowed in the Quran and sunnah..

You are morally bankrupt. I wouldn't expect you to understand.

You think it is morally bankrupt, to assert that raping female prisoners trafficked from war or conflict is wrong? Wow!

You encourage the concept of "sex by consent", and shun the institution of marriage.

Who does it harm if someone decides they don't want to get married, as opposed to rape, which you seem to be suggesting is morally ok? I have found often where morals are being espoused as absolutes, as theists often do, that seem to have little to do with empathy for the suffering of others. You are doing precisely that here, and giving that impression. Worryingly you seem more angered that people don't share your beliefs and say so, than you are by the idea that the Quran endorses rape, or non consensual sex.

 

[Sheldon]

If you have it's not as noticeable as you guys attacking Islam and Christianity.

So what?

You particularly are angry at us and not them, why is that the case?

I'm not angry at all, I don't care what people believe, only how they behave. Sadly beliefs often feed actions, and when people defend beliefs that contain pernicious doctrine then I am usually minded to speak out. I am more than capable of vehemently disagreeing with someone's beliefs or what they say, without being remotely angry. many theists make this mistake about atheists, who knows why, but my disbelief in your deity or any deity, is of no more significance to me than my disbelief in mermaids; but then those who believe mermaids exist (and there are such people) generally don't insist the mermaids have given them absolute laws everyone has to live by.

 

[Sheldon]

How is a morally bankrupt to say that one should not have sex with someone who doesn't consent?

I know, that was pretty worrying, I'd say it was people who didn't think that acts like rape are never morally acceptable, were the ones who are morally bankrupt.

 

[Sheldon]

muhammad_isa said: ↑
The point is that the system of "adult consent" has become uppermost due to people's dismissal of marriage.

That is false.

I also found it more than a little bit creepy tbh. I don't care how anyone feels about marriage, that's their choice, I would be horrified if someone thought non-consensual sex was ever acceptable.

 

[Sheldon]

No turmoil.
Sex outside of marriage is wrong.

You don't believe that, so all your moral accusations, as far as I'm concerned, are deeply flawed.

So only your beliefs are acceptable, tell me again how ISIS are not really Muslims? Is it possible you just don't see it? Sex outside of marriage need not be remotely pernicious, raping someone is obviously always deeply pernicious, so I would view rape as deeply immoral behaviour under any circumstances.

I genuinely couldn't care less about consenting adults having sex outside of marriage. Who does it harm?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So a deity with limitless intelligence to create a message, and limitless power to communicate it, can't get any closer to 13.8 billion years than 6 days? Or any closer to explaining hundreds of millions of years of species evolution, than an instant of inexplicable magic, creating humans in their current form, and from clay.

It's errant nonsense, as is your sweeping claim to know that the Quran is true. That's just your subjective opinion, and not a very compelling one given the mental cartwheels you just used to try and wave away the ludicrous errors in its creation myth.

Hi,

The six Days, each is a thousand years in the Quran. This is the creation that started with Adam, and continued for 6000 years, then the End was to come.


"According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar- Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim- 'Abd al-Samad b. Ma'qil I- Wahb: Five thousand six hundred years of this world have elapsed. I do not know which kings and prophets lived in every period (zaman) of those years. I aksed Wahb b. Munabbih: How long is (the total duration of) this world? He replied: Six thousand years."


The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, the parable of myself and the Prophets before me is that of a man who built a house, perfected it, and beautified it, except for the place of one brick at its cornerstone. The people walk around it and are amazed by it, and they say: Why is this brick not placed? Thus, I am the brick and I am the seal of the Prophets.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3535, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2286

and this verse tells us, the end was to come 1000 years after Islam:

"He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon." 32:5

The Prophet said:
"I was sent to you at a time when the Last Day is very close like these two fingers"

So, the Six Days, each a 1000 years, was the length of this world, starting from Adam. Once 6000 years passed from Adam, the world was to end according to the Islamic sources.

And this Hadith farther conforms it:

Amr from Shuraih bin Ubaid from Amr Bakai from Kaabul Ahbar that he said:

“......“Likewise did Allah, the Exalted, to the Children of Israel. It is not difficult that He may gather this Ummah in a day or half a day. And a day before your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning."

 

[Sheldon]

So, are you saying that a husband does not need his wife's consent for sex?

I was actually too scared to ask, seriously.

Try asking him which is worse.

Spousal rape or unmarried gay sex?

Again, I'm almost afraid I already know the answer.

 

[Sheldon]

The six Days, each is a thousand years in the Quran.

Sorry but that's asinine. As I already said it's absurd to imagine a deity with limitless intelligence to create a message and limitless power to communicate it, can't get any closer to 13.8 billion years, than just 6 days. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? Only it seems there is a much simpler explanation for the error, that doesn't need unevidenced assumptions, and doesn't offend reason.

 

[ppp]

I know, that was pretty worrying, I'd say it was people who didn't think that acts like rape are never morally acceptable, were the ones who are morally bankrupt.

It is worrying! And if I ever get a response it will simply be chest thumping rhetoric

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry but that's asinine. As I already said it's absurd to imagine a deity with limitless intelligence to create a message and limitless power to communicate it, can't get any closer to 13.8 billion years, than just 6 days. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? Only it seems there is a much simpler explanation for the error, that doesn't need unevidenced assumptions, and doesn't offend reason.

You are thinking that it claims the physical world is created in six thousands years. No, it is not about that.
According to Islamic sources, it is about creating human civilization by sending successive Messengers, to guide humanity. It started from Adam, and continued for six thousands years.
I quoted Hadithes to show that.
The word "creation" in Quran is not about physical creation. It is about creation from a spiritual perspective.

 

[ppp]

I also found it more than a little bit creepy tbh. I don't care how anyone feels about marriage, that's their choice, I would be horrified if someone though non-consensual sex was ever acceptable.

His posts have been so unreasoning and over the top that I have wondered if he is simply posing as a Muslim to make them look bad

 

[Sheldon]

You are thinking that it claims the physical world is created in six thousands years. No, it is not about that.
According to Islamic sources, it is about creating human civilization by sending successive Messengers, to guide humanity. It started from Adam, and continued for six thousands years.
I quoted Hadithes to show that.
The word "creation" in Quran is not about physical creation. It is about creation from a spiritual perspective.

Sorry but I fear you are missing my point. The creation myth is of course plagiarised at least in part, as is the Islamic religion, which like Christianity is a derivative of Judaism, religions change and evolve and spawn new religions. However this is not the point. The point was scientific errors in the Quran. I realise many believers in the light of modern scientific discoveries, try to get past this by resorting to allegory, but that doesn't help, as the idea a deity with limitless power and intelligence can't create and communicate a definitive and unequivocal message, is irrational to the point of absurdity. Especially if that deity is also claimed to have limitless mercy, and whether people believe its message has dire consequences.

 

[Sheldon]

On another forum, an apologist told me that the women who were taken as war booty by Muhammad's men did not only consent to the sex, but were grateful to them for killing their menfolk and releasing them from the bondage of polytheistic barbarism.

The cognitive dissonance knows no bounds!

I know, the sheer desperation of such mental cartwheels never cease to impress me, but for all the wrong reasons of course.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I genuinely couldn't care less about consenting adults having sex outside of marriage. Who does it harm?

I think perhaps that contraception has caused people to think that marital relations is just "a bit of fun".

It's not. It has profound emotional consequences.
Perhaps ask the police what harm can be caused.

 

[Sheldon]

The problem Sheldon, is that you want the answers all at a superficial level. Go deeper. Go dive into it deeply.

The problem is that when your facile understanding of morality is challenged you have no credible answer, you're both projecting and deflecting. The fact people are disagreeing wildly about what is moral in this thread ought to be a clue. Good and bad are subjective concepts obviously, or we would all agree on what was good and bad all the time.

 

[Link]

The problem is that when your facile understanding of morality is challenged you have no credible answer, you're both projecting and deflecting. The fact people are disagreeing wildly about what is moral in this thread ought to be a clue. Good and bad are subjective concepts obviously or we all agree on what was good and bad all the time.

Disagreement is irrelevant if it's objective or not.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I genuinely couldn't care less about consenting adults having sex outside of marriage. Who does it harm?

I think perhaps that contraception has caused people to think that marital relations is just "a bit of fun".

It's not. It has profound emotional consequences.
Perhaps ask the police what harm can be caused.

I asked you, am I going to get an answer for once?

Also which in your opinion, is more immoral, a gay couple have consensual sex outside of marriage, or a husband forcing his wife into non-consensual sex?

 

[Sheldon]

Disagreement is irrelevant if it's objective or not.

I disagree with your subjective claim.

 

[Link]

I disagree with your subjective claim.

You're foolish to do so.