Ask About Islam

[RAYYAN]

Beliefs have consequences, do they not? And false beliefs are more likely to result in bad consequences than are true beliefs. No?

I don't know about the others, I am a Muslim and I am happy and don't see any problems
Can you give me examples of bad consequences?

And who is not letting you live? Are you trying to say that expressing disagreement with you is somehow equivalent to not letting you live? That seems a little hyperbolic to me.

No, that is not what I am saying, I came to a public forum and I know people will disagree with me..... that is fine
What I am saying is, why can't both believers and disbelievers respect one another's beliefs!

 

[RAYYAN]

In which case you cannot claim that a god is responsible for anything, and you certainly can't claim that you know one is. You are simply presenting your opinion based on your beliefs.

Of course, that is my opinion and belief

You said "I simply know behind every thing is a creator". Whee is the "creator" behind the snowflake?

A snowflake isn't carved out of a block of ice that someone made. It forms, without any help from anyone, from things that are not ice, by processes that are well understood.

Snowflakes are formed out of things that exist already
life didn't exist before
the universe didn't exist before
and boom here we are

 

[RAYYAN]

Straw man. I said "It would be surprising to find a qualified biologist who believes in creationism". I still maintain that.
And remember I also explained that religious scientists often claim that god set up the conditions for evolution, Big Bang, etc, so they don't have to deny the evidence.
AAAS membership is open to anyone. You don't have to be qualified in a "hard science".
That survey was in the US. You will find a very different result in Europe.
In a survey of members of the Royal Institution and the American Academy of Science (the UK and US organisations for the top, expert scientists), about 95% do not believe in god.

Of course, there are bound to be some qualified scientists who are also literalist religionists, but I have never encountered any in my career ( and I have worked in the US).

Qualified!
Who are they? and why you think the once in Pew are not qualified if you think so?

 

[ppp]

I don't know about the others, I am a Muslim and I am happy and don't see any problems
Can you give me examples of bad consequences?

I just asked you two questions, which you ignored. Please do me the courtesy of answering my questions; especially if you are posing questions that you wish to have answered.

I am happy to have a conversation, but only if there is reciprocity.

 

[Sheldon]

Am I wrong!
So you know or don't know? pick a side and don't confuse me

You made a claim, that claim was demonstrably incorrect, and I explained why. I have no idea what you mean by pick a side, but it seems like you are trying to use a false dichotomy fallacy.

Sheldon said: ↑
This was your rather bizarre assertion:
What theory were you talking about, since you mention both the big bang and species evolution, neither of which makes any claims about the origins of life.

So what is their claim?

So what is whose claim, regarding what?

Sheldon said: ↑
I certainly said no such thing, but please do quote where you claim I did.

Quote, what? You jumping up and down?

No, that was just ludicrous hyperbole on your part, I am talking about your claims here:

Are you asking me not to post about how I feel!

As I did not such thing, and you then asserted I had, and so I asked you to quote me doing so. For the record you can believe the moon is made of cheese if it makes you happy, but if you make claims then others may be minded to comment on or challenge those claims, as that is what a public debate forum is for.

 

[RAYYAN]

I just asked you two questions, which you ignored. Please do me the courtesy of answering my questions; especially if you are posing questions that you wish to have answered.

I am happy to have a conversation, but only if there is reciprocity.

Beliefs have consequences, do they not? Yes like worshipping God and being amazing

And false beliefs are more likely to result in bad consequences than are true beliefs. No? Sure depending on the type of belief

 

[KWED]

I don't know about the others, I am a Muslim and I am happy and don't see any problems
Can you give me examples of bad consequences?

Muslims believe that a child's genitals should be mutilated. There is no rational argument for this practice. That results in a bad consequence for the baby.

What I am saying is, why can't both believers and disbelievers respect one another's beliefs!

Respect is earned, not expected or demanded.
I do not respect your belief that babies should have their genitals mutilated.
I do not respect your belief that people should be tortured for having consensual, adult sex.
I do not respect your belief that disbelievers are the worst of beasts (what was that you were saying about respecting one another's beliefs?)
etc...

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

honestly, I don't either.

“There was a tale he had read once, long ago, as a small boy: the story of a traveler who had slipped down a cliff, with man-eating tigers above him and a lethal fall below him, who managed to stop his fall halfway down the side of the cliff, holding on for dear life. There was a clump of strawberries beside him, and certain death above him and below. What should he do? went the question.

And the reply was, Eat the strawberries."
-- American Gods, Neil Gaiman

Trick the tigers into falling and then climb up lol.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I can prove it to myself and that is enough for my understanding. My Creator is not a failure. Just look around you. Look at the human body. Look at the oceans the seas, the beauty of the universe. No one can duplicate them If this isn't enough proof just from the eye alone, then I don't know what to tell you. I see a beautiful Creator to create such beautiful things. I don't see the idea of us evolving from nothing when we obviously came from something. It's just not logical. The Quran is for the understanding.

God couldn’t make two people out of dirt, so God can’t duplicate either.

 

[KWED]

Of course, that is my opinion and belief

So you now accept that you do not know god exists, or that god is needed for anything else to exist. It is just your opinion based on belief.

Snowflakes are formed out of things that exist already

That wasn't what you asked. You asked for examples of things that didn't require someone to create them.

life didn't exist before
the universe didn't exist before
and boom here we are

So you are actually asking where the universe came from, which is a completely different issue.

 

[KWED]

Qualified!

Yes, qualified. In order to qualify as a biology graduate you need to understand basic principles enough to write accurate exams and papers. If you understand these sufficiently, there is no room for creationism.
It would be like watching a woman give birth, up close, and then saying, "Meh, I still reckon the stork brings them".

Who are they? and why you think the once in Pew are not qualified if you think so?

Some undoubtedly are qualified, but as I pointed out, anyone can join the AAAS. You don't have to be a scientist. And you are still avoiding my original point. I didn't mention "belief in god" (which is what the survey asked), I said belief in creationism, which is quite different.

WADR, you really need to try and address my actual points rather than repeatedly attacking the same straw man.

 

[ppp]

Beliefs have consequences, do they not? Yes like worshipping God and being amazing

And like worshiping God and causing pain either intentionally or inadvertently as a direct result of the beliefs that one might have about God.

And false beliefs are more likely to result in bad consequences than are true beliefs. No? Sure depending on the type of belief

The type of belief? From this I infer that you mean none of your beliefs can have bad consequences. Just everybody else. The technical term for this position is" everyone's farts stink except for mine"

But I do appreciate the candid responses.

I don't know about the others, I am a Muslim and I am happy and don't see any problems
Can you give me examples of bad consequences?

You do realize that some Islamic beliefs cause other people unhappiness and cause other people problems. Right?
I suspect that your response will be that those are not real Muslim beliefs (as in terrorist acts) or that the unhappy people should mind their place (women) or that they deserve it (gays).

Do you agree with some other Muslim posters on this site who say that one cannot rape one's own wife?

The biggest problem is the attitude that nothing bad can come out of one's religion. That it's always the other guy. And that the even people who share one's religion, yet do things on the basis of one's holy text that one agrees are bad acts, are not real or devout followers of one's religion.

 

[ppp]

I am answering this one separately.

No, that is not what I am saying, I came to a public forum and I know people will disagree with me..... that is fine
What I am saying is, why can't both believers and disbelievers respect one another's beliefs!

I suspect that because we do not find all of one another's beliefs to be respectable. I an be a respector of humanity, and afford a person the basics of human respect, while still reviling their beliefs. I strongly disrespect the beliefs of racial supremacists, but I respect them enough to treat them as humans. Respecting their humanity does not in anyway stop me from working directly against their vile beliefs.

I don't know specifically what version of Islam you subscribe to. I might be perfectly fine with your personal interpretation. Just as I am with most Christians. OTOH, your beliefs might be closer to those of the Westboro Baptist Church. I sincerely hope that is not the case.

 

[RAYYAN]

And like worshiping God and causing pain either intentionally or inadvertently as a direct result of the beliefs that one might have about God.

Can you explain more on this? I don't get what you mean

The type of belief? From this I infer that you mean none of your beliefs can have bad consequences. Just everybody else. The technical term for this position is" everyone's farts stink except for mine"

Is this about you thinking bad about everyone else or just putting words into my mouth? (grow up)
I never said that, what I mean here, depends on the guidelines of that belief, some might be good and some might be bad on others.

You do realize that some Islamic beliefs cause other people unhappiness and cause other people problems. Right?
I suspect that your response will be that those are not real Muslim beliefs (as in terrorist acts) or that the unhappy people should mind their place (women) or that they deserve it (gays).

Do you agree with some other Muslim posters on this site who say that one cannot rape one's own wife?

The biggest problem is the attitude that nothing bad can come out of one's religion. That it's always the other guy. And that the even people who share one's religion, yet do things on the basis of one's holy text that one agrees are bad acts, are not real or devout followers of one's religion.

I understand where you coming from and I agree some people do things in the name of Islam, but, when you want to investigate Islam, you don't see what people do, you see what the source (Quran and Hadith) says
I am happy to debate on a specific examples if you wish

 

[ppp]

Can you explain more on this? I don't get what you mean

Religions have throughout history, restricted people to certain roles in a culture based on their gender, sex, religion, nation and skin color. Many times based on the belief that their god or gods have ordained that things be that way. These restrictions make people unhappy on a scale ranging from discontent to abject horrific woe. This is why we have the (as some people call it) "stylish" social changes such as women's suffrage, general literacy, universal education, abolition of slavery, removal of caste restrictions, racial civil rights, LGBTQ+ suffrage, marriage equality, etc.

The people who benefit from the religious system talk about how happy they are with the status quo, and cannot fathom how anyone else can not be happy with the system that they love.

Is this about you thinking bad about everyone else or just putting words into my mouth? (grow up)

Oh? Can the correct understanding and application of your religious beliefs be directly responsible for bad or immoral consequences?

BTW, this has nothing to do with "thinking bad about everyone". It is just the way that people are.

I understand where you coming from and I agree some people do things in the name of Islam, but, when you want to investigate Islam, you don't see what people do, you see what the source (Quran and Hadith) says
I am happy to debate on a specific examples if you wish

The most that you can do is argue that your interpretation of what the text says is correct, and that another Muslim's interpretation is wrong. And the most that they can do is argue that your interpretation is wrong, and theirs is right. Why should it matter to me if one both or neither is correct?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Some people think the world is flat, so what?

And some people think giants existed.

There is a Hadith that states the height of Adam was 60 cubits tall (about 30 metres).
And it says people have been getting smaller in height since Adam.

Have you seen any evidence that confirms that Hadith?

The evidence is not found in skeleton evidence.


The evidence is in the measurement of men.

Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? Matthew 6:27


The Hadith is saying Adam was a great man, and men have been getting worse since Adam.


Large skeleton evidence will not be found.
The height of a man is not seen on the outward appearance.

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7


There is another Hadith that talks about Muhammad seeing a man so tall he was not able to see his head. It says that man was Abraham.


Have you ever seen evidence of men so tall that their heads reach the heavens?

 

[RAYYAN]

Religions have throughout history, restricted people to certain roles in a culture based on their gender, sex, religion, nation and skin color. Many times based on the belief that their god or gods have ordained that things be that way. These restrictions make people unhappy on a scale ranging from discontent to abject horrific woe. This is why we have the (as some people call it) "stylish" social changes such as women's suffrage, general literacy, universal education, abolition of slavery, removal of caste restrictions, racial civil rights, LGBTQ+ suffrage, marriage equality, etc.

That is true. In some cases, religious restrictions can make some unhappy. But, all religions claim to do the right thing, doing the right thing should be a priority regardless of how happy or unhappy a person is. The real question is, who tells what is right and what is wrong! is it you and I? is it society? Is it God? if it is God, which God?

Oh? Can the correct understanding and application of your religious beliefs be directly responsible for bad or immoral consequences?

Maybe yes, but, as I said above, who decides what is moral or immoral?
For example, someone might see abortion is ok, but another person can see it to be immoral, who is right and who is wrong. morality is not subjective, but the way we look at it is

BTW, this has nothing to do with "thinking bad about everyone". It is just the way that people are.

My apologies if I misunderstood

The most that you can do is argue that your interpretation of what the text says is correct and that another Muslim's interpretation is wrong. And the most that they can do is argue that your interpretation is wrong, and theirs is right. Why should it matter to me if one both or neither is correct?

That is true, there might not be much I can do and I can't change the text. But, we are here for a discussion, that is the point of this forum.

 

[RAYYAN]

Yes, qualified. In order to qualify as a biology graduate you need to understand basic principles enough to write accurate exams and papers. If you understand these sufficiently, there is no room for creationism.
It would be like watching a woman give birth, up close, and then saying, "Meh, I still reckon the stork brings them".

Some undoubtedly are qualified, but as I pointed out, anyone can join the AAAS. You don't have to be a scientist. And you are still avoiding my original point. I didn't mention "belief in god" (which is what the survey asked), I said belief in creationism, which is quite different.

WADR, you really need to try and address my actual points rather than repeatedly attacking the same straw man.

I am addressing your point by claiming biologists don't believe in God (I don't remember the exact wording)
PEW says they do at least 31%
Now you come up with "Qualified" biologists
So there is no qualified in this 31% ?
LOL

 

[ppp]

That is true. In some cases, religious restrictions can make some unhappy. But, all religions claim to do the right thing, doing the right thing should be a priority regardless of how happy or unhappy a person is. The real question is, who tells what is right and what is wrong! is it you and I? is it society? Is it God? if it is God, which God?

I agree that all religions claim to do the right thing. But they make the claims from an assertion of authority, rather than from a rational justification of their position. The real question is how do we determine what we are actually justified in making rules about.

Maybe yes, but, as I said above, who decides what is moral or immoral?
For example, someone might see abortion is ok, but another person can see it to be immoral, who is right and who is wrong. morality is not subjective, but the way we look at it is

That is more of a question of legal than moral, IMO.
But you misunderstand my question. I wasn't talking about people in general, but you in specific. What I was asking is, Can the correct understanding and application of your religious beliefs be directly responsible for bad or immoral consequences?

That is true, there might not be much I can do and I can't change the text. But, we are here for a discussion, that is the point of this forum.

My point is that we are taking two incompatible approaches to the text. When I am talking about morality, I am talking about the well-being of thinking beings, bounded by the moral metrics of empathy, equity, cooperation and reciprocity. When you talk about morality, you are talking about what you think your god wants. I do not consider what a god (or any one being) wants to be a standard for for morality. And you may or may not think what I am talking about is morality.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Yes, qualified. In order to qualify as a biology graduate you need to understand basic principles enough to write accurate exams and papers. If you understand these sufficiently, there is no room for creationism.
It would be like watching a woman give birth, up close, and then saying, "Meh, I still reckon the stork brings them".

Are you qualified to say storks don't bring babies to their mothers?

Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. Zechariah 5:9


The stork from heaven:
Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the Lord. Jeremiah 8:7

Where the birds make their nests: as for the stork, the fir trees are her house. Psalm 104:17

Do you know what a Fir tree is?