Ask About Islam

[joelr]

So why do you think these scientists who are educated and use facts with evidence believe in God with no evidence?
32% of biologists believe in God
19% believe in a higher power

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I don't seem to know how to post an image, but here is the source

That doesn't mean they believe in a theistic God. Especially "higher power". It just means they think there may be some type of God out there. It's not likely they believe specific theology like God gives messages to people and God wants these messengers to say how much he hates non-believers. That is stuff made up by people.
The majority of scientists I meet believe religions are stories made up by people. They know evidence will bear that out. They just hope there is more than just materialism. The majority do believe materialism is all there is.

But a biologist doesn't have to look too deep into religion and evidence. They definitely know evolution is a natural process (no creationists in biology) but they may go to church regularly and read apologetics and not question it. Same with religious leaders. They may have grown up believing something is true. That belief makes them happy and brings comfort. They may have personal feelings where they feel a God is reaching out and letting them know their religion is true.

All religions have people who claim "personal experience" but not everyone knows this is just a psychological phenomenon that happens with any belief system. Apologetics is literally pseudo-science and fake history. This can be proven.
You can see in this thread that all of the claims of "scientific miracles" that could not possible be in the Quran are not what they claim. Almost every example was known by the Greeks. It's also a historical fact that this knowledge was written down by Roman and Christian sources who largely ignored it but Islam was greatly interested in scientific knowledge. They read these encyclopedias and adapted then in their stories.
So, for one that apologetic is a lie. 2nd you can see that the author of those verses had gotten the science from books yet claimed it was given during a revelation. More evidence that this is not what it claims.
The more apologetics you honestly analyze you will see none actually stand up to reason.

If they did, scientists and smart people who are not indoctrinated into the religion and emotionally attached would say it was impressive. Yet the only people who actually say that have fallen for the apologetics for personal reasons.
The entire debate almost immediately fell into the religious folks being defensive and saying I was laughing at them and the discussion devolved into "well I believe and....(quotes some scripture or creed statement)?
As soon as the evidence didn't stand, instead of continuing discussion which was the name of the thread, they went silent claiming they don't speak to atheists?
So the thread really is, "if you believe ask questions and we will use confirmation bias to strengthen our beliefs". What does that tell you?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..They may have grown up believing something is true. That belief makes them happy and brings comfort..

Why does it "make them happy"?
..it doesn't seem to make you happy.

What's the difference between these "happy people" and you?
Are you claiming that you are smarter than them? What exactly?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

lol, I ate it before when I was non-Muslim. It's pretty good.

I started to prefer turkey bacon.

 

[RAYYAN]

I explained why the term was apropos, so it is not what i want, but you seem to have ignored that, and resorted to an ad hominem fallacy. Pretty ironic as well, given you used it to question my social skills. If people are offended by the comparison then refute it, rather than insult the person who has used it, and explained why it applies.

Ok!

 

[RAYYAN]

That doesn't mean they believe in a theistic God. Especially "higher power". It just means they think there may be some type of God out there. It's not likely they believe specific theology like God gives messages to people and God wants these messengers to say how much he hates non-believers. That is stuff made up by people.
The majority of scientists I meet believe religions are stories made up by people. They know evidence will bear that out. They just hope there is more than just materialism. The majority do believe materialism is all there is.

How do you know that?
I know scientists who believe in God as it is in Islam

But a biologist doesn't have to look too deep into religion and evidence. They definitely know evolution is a natural process (no creationists in biology) but they may go to church regularly and read apologetics and not question it. Same with religious leaders. They may have grown up believing something is true. That belief makes them happy and brings comfort. They may have personal feelings where they feel a God is reaching out and letting them know their religion is true.

Yes, some can be like that, but a simple search on Google or Youtube can show you many scientists believe in God as the result of their research

All religions have people who claim "personal experience" but not everyone knows this is just a psychological phenomenon that happens with any belief system. Apologetics is literally pseudo-science and fake history. This can be proven.

I believe in personal experience, and I don't mean God talking to a person or some sort of that type, but personal experience is real. For example, asking or praying for something and that happens. But of course, no one can use that as evidence, I get it

You can see in this thread that all of the claims of "scientific miracles" that could not possible be in the Quran are not what they claim. Almost every example was known by the Greeks. It's also a historical fact that this knowledge was written down by Roman and Christian sources who largely ignored it but Islam was greatly interested in scientific knowledge. They read these encyclopedias and adapted then in their stories.

To be honest, I didn't read the whole thread, but, I know there are facts mentioned to be in the Quran and they are fake.

So, for one that apologetic is a lie. 2nd you can see that the author of those verses had gotten the science from books yet claimed it was given during a revelation. More evidence that this is not what it claims.
The more apologetics you honestly analyze you will see none actually stand up to reason.

If they did, scientists and smart people who are not indoctrinated into the religion and emotionally attached would say it was impressive. Yet the only people who actually say that have fallen for the apologetics for personal reasons.
The entire debate almost immediately fell into the religious folks being defensive and saying I was laughing at them and the discussion devolved into "well I believe and....(quotes some scripture or creed statement)?
As soon as the evidence didn't stand, instead of continuing discussion which was the name of the thread, they went silent claiming they don't speak to atheists?
So the thread really is, "if you believe ask questions and we will use confirmation bias to strengthen our beliefs". What does that tell you?

I don't know about those examples and claims, but I promise you I won't disappear and if I don't know something I say it.
My purpose here is not to convert anyone or convince anyone.
I want someone after chatting with me and explaining what Islam is and what certain verses in the Quran mean goes "..... hmmm the Quran is not as bad as it sounds"

 

[RAYYAN]

Which God? The OT God - Yahweh is a syncretic blend of myths starting with the Canaanite versions, a warrior deity, then becoming a national God. Later in the middle ages Christian theologians added all sorts of Greek theology to Yahweh - beyond space and time, tri-omni, these are Platonic concepts.
Their isn't any evidence for these theistic Gods.
Deism, a concept that there is some type of God behind reality but does not interact with creation is possible. But religions do not use this concept of God.
Generally when religious people ask this question they mean their own version of God. Bbut do you think there is a chance Krishna or Zeus exist?

Any God
Supreme being

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I explained why the term was apropos, so it is not what i want, but you seem to have ignored that, and resorted to an ad hominem fallacy. Pretty ironic as well, given you used it to question my social skills. If people are offended by the comparison then refute it, rather than insult the person who has used it, and explained why it applies.

Ok!

So no refutation then, fair enough.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The idea of prophesy, like the idea of a miracle, is logically flawed for me, as with prophesy apart from the fact the claims are often vague and usually unverifiable, and as are the claims they came true of course.

I understand what you are saying. I'm really trying to show you the flaws in your logic.
Have you thought about what I said about the valleys, the hills, and the mountains?

I also told you this Quran verse shows miracle/prophecy.

"(then there are) gardens of grapes, and olives, and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety): when they begin to bear fruit, feast your eyes with the fruit and the ripeness thereof. Behold! in these things there are signs for people who believe".

I will try to explain it better.
It doesnt seem to be amazing but it is just as amazing as any other miracle/prophecy.
Because miracle/prophecy is a verification process. Not magic.

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Corn - Oil - Wine
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

The Quran verse weaves into a different measurement system but shows the same measurement. So it verifies the measurements.

And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22



Are you now starting to understand how miracle/prophecy is not vague and is not open to interpretation?

 

[RAYYAN]

So no refutation then, fair enough.

I just want to leave it there if that is ok

 

[Sheldon]

Are you now starting to understand how miracle/prophecy is not vague and is not open to interpretation?

Not at all sorry, and I fail to see how repeating the same quotes will help, also as I said the idea of prophesy and miracle seem to have inherent logical fallacies in them, and I explained what these were, but you don't seem to have addressed that at all.

For example a miracle is defined as "an extraordinary event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency." As I said, this appears to be an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, since not being able to offer contrary evidence for a claim, does not logical infer it is true or valid.

Nothing in your quotes seems to represent objective evidence for prophesy or a miracle, or any deity, as I explained?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Not at all sorry, and I fail to see how repeating the same quotes will help, also as I said the idea of prophesy and miracle seem to have inherent logical fallacies in them, and I explained what these were, but you don't seem to have addressed that at all.

For example a miracle is defined as "an extraordinary event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency." As I said, this appears to be an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, since not being able to offer contrary evidence for a claim, does not logical infer it is true or valid.

Nothing in your quotes seems to represent objective evidence for prophesy or a miracle, or any deity, as I explained?

Your idea, and the definition is wrong.
I am addressing them. Please listen carefully.

This verse I showed is not vague. It is not open to interpretation:
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

They are signs/miracle/prophecy:
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25

They are measurements
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Just as spear, sword, bow are measurements.

Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows.





So this verse is confirmation verifying the measurements:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple
Straw - Dust - Stubble

The verse is correct as moon is the measurement of the spear, and sun is the measurement of the bow.
It leaves out one measurement of each set - stars and swords. That is further confirmation.

There are verses about the sword in Eden, and how Adam and Eve wore Fig leaves in Eden.
There are also verses that the serpent in Eden eats Dust.
There is also the verse I showed you that swords turn to dust.
Because its all Level2. Swords are dust, dust is sword, same thing.



Notice in the table of measurements how the stars appear as figs (Level2), as in this miracle/prophecy:

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Revelation 6:13

Stars are figs, as figs are stars.

It is not vague. It is not open to interpretation. Its not even prediction.
It is confirmation of the measurements. It is verification of the measurements.
Not magic.

Do you now understand?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Nothing in your quotes seems to represent objective evidence for prophesy or a miracle, or any deity, as I explained?

Seems.
The problem is that you associate miracles with magic, and you associate prophecies as being future predictions.

When magic and predictions are just peoples interpretations trying to give meaning/explanation to the strange words of the prophets.

Like how can that happen? Magic.
Why havent I seen it happen? It will happen one day.

A common interpretation can become a definition.

That sort of thinking is why you are wrong.
That sort of thinking is why it doesnt make sense to you.

Please listen carefully to what I say and show you. Im trying to show you a different way of thinking/hearing the words.

Im trying to show you the measurements, and the confirmation of the measurements.
That is what miracles and prophecies are.

 

[ppp]

Seems.
The problem is that you associate miracles with magic, and you associate prophecies as being future predictions.

When magic and predictions are just peoples interpretations trying to give meaning/explanation to the strange words of the prophets.

Like how can that happen? Magic.
Why havent I seen it happen? It will happen one day.

A common interpretation can become a definition.

That sort of thinking is why you are wrong.
That sort of thinking is why it doesnt make sense to you.

Please listen carefully to what I say and show. Im trying to show you a different way of thinking.
Im trying to show you the measurements, and the confirmation of the measurements.
That is what miracles and prophecies are.
It is objective evidence.

Please describe one specific measurement. What is the object being measure, and what are the units of the measurements?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Please describe one specific measurement. What is the object being measure, and what are the units of the measurements?

We are being measured.

As it says in the Quran:
And ye shall be sorted out into three classes. 56:7


The four directions/units:
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
South - North - West - East

Iron is the Earth. The first heaven above the Earth is Brass. Then above Brass is Silver. Then above Silver is Gold.

As it says clearly here:
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23


The Earth and the heavens is the treasury:
But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 6:19


Churches have understood the verse wrong regarding the treasury.
As it said:
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3

Because Earthly gold and silver is just iron. So it rusts.
But they wouldnt see it rust. It cant be seen, only understood.

 

[ppp]

We are being measured.

As it says in the Quran:
And ye shall be sorted out into three classes. 56:7


The four directions/units:
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
South - North - West - East

Iron is the Earth. The first heaven above the Earth is Brass. Then above Brass is Silver. Then above Silver is Gold.

As it says clearly here:
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23


The Earth and the heavens is the treasury:
But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 6:19


Churches have understood the verse wrong regarding the treasury.
As it said:
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3

Because Earthly gold and silver is just iron. So it rusts.
But they wouldnt see it rust. It cant be seen, only understood.

That is not measurement. And it certainly isn't confirmation. That is merely poetry.

 

[Sheldon]

Your idea, and the definition is wrong.

It's not my definition it is the dictionary's Google online in fact.

Nor is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy my idea, you can blame the ancient Greeks for logic.

This verse I showed is not vague. It is not open to interpretation:
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

It is both vague and incomprehensible, and if you think the moon can stop orbiting the earth, or ever has, I don't know what to say to that. The sun rotates on its axis, but it does not move, obviously.

They are signs/miracle/prophecy:

They are risible claims.

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25

Again so vague as to be meaningless. I mean waves roaring, you can't be serious.

They are measurements

They are vague claims, some of which are nonsensical.

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

What does that even mean?

Just as spear, sword, bow are measurements.

Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. So this verse is confirmation verifying the measurements:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Ok sorry, I have to ask, but is this some sort of elaborate windup I've fallen for?

Stars are figs, as figs are stars. It is not vague. It is not open to interpretation. Its not even prediction. It is confirmation of the measurements. It is verification of the measurements.
Not magic. Do you now understand?

You're kidding right? Are we even using the same language here? Figs are stars is not vague? It's gibberish to me sorry. You just keep repeating, and claiming you've explained it, but I see nothing approaching objective evidence, or even anything comprehensible? What on earth does "figs are stars" even mean? I also see no measurements, or any table of measurements?

 

[Sheldon]

That is not measurement. And it certainly isn't confirmation. That is merely poetry.

That's what I was seeing as well, it's hard to imagine anyone can think that represents objective evidence for anything.

 

[ppp]

That's what I was seeing as well, it's hard to imagine anyone can think that represents objective evidence for anything.

And yet they keep claiming that it is. So bizarre

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It's only common sense that men and women keep separate from praying next to each other. Men and women have attraction, desire and lust. BOTH and everyone knows this to be factual...men as well as women they try to impress, to gain attention etc. So, in Islam, that is eliminated.

A: Islam forgets that gay people exist.
B: People are cowards. Have some spiritual fortitude.

 

[MyM]

A: Islam forgets that gay people exist.
B: People are cowards. Have some spiritual fortitude.

Trust me, they don't forget.

I am not God to say Ya gotta take that up with him on the Day of Judgement