Ask About Islam

[RAYYAN]

I agree that all religions claim to do the right thing. But they make the claims from an assertion of authority, rather than from a rational justification of their position. The real question is how do we determine what we are actually justified in making rules about.


That is more of a question of legal than moral, IMO.
But you misunderstand my question. I wasn't talking about people in general, but you in specific. What I was asking is, Can the correct understanding and application of your religious beliefs be directly responsible for bad or immoral consequences?


My point is that we are taking two incompatible approaches to the text. When I am talking about morality, I am talking about the well-being of thinking beings, bounded by the moral metrics of empathy, equity, cooperation and reciprocity. When you talk about morality, you are talking about what you think your god wants. I do not consider what a god (or any one being) wants to be a standard for for morality. And you may or may not think what I am talking about is morality.

I have to come back to this tomorrow
time to pick up kids from school

 

[ppp]

I have to come back to this tomorrow
time to pick up kids from school

Kids com first. Have a great night.

 

[Sheldon]

I don't know about the others, I am a Muslim and I am happy and don't see any problems Can you give me examples of bad consequences?

On here some theists, have expressed homophobic hate speech, defended the rape of children, denied that women should have the same rights as men, just off the top of my head, and some of the posters expressing such views claimed to be Muslims.

why can't both believers and disbelievers respect one another's beliefs!

Disbelief is not a belief, by definition. I respect people's right to believe whatever they want, but I am not obliged to respect the belief obviously, else I would have to respect contradictory beliefs, and deeply pernicious beliefs, and rationally and morally I cannot.

 

[Sheldon]

I fail to see your point, as you made the bare unevidenced assertion that:

WonderingWorrier said: ↑
I think what the bible and quran says is true.

So I pointed out that some people believe the world is flat, so what? Then you answered:

And some people think giants existed.

You seem to be making my point or me, which is that people believe things for which they can demonstrate no objective evidence.

The Hadith is saying Adam was a great man, and men have been getting worse since Adam.

Harry Potter novels describe wizardry, this is not evidence for wizardry.

There is another Hadith that talks about Muhammad seeing a man so tall he was not able to see his head. It says that man was Abraham.

The Lord of the Rings books describe the eye of Lord Sauron rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened upon a pit, a window into nothing.

Again what's your point, anyone can write anything, that doesn't make it real or true.

 

[Sheldon]

However, you claim that things appear with no maker, I am asking you to give me an example, but you keep beating around the bush.

Where did he claim that?

 

[Sheldon]

Of course, I can't prove any of this because God doesn't use magic

Magic is defined as the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. So unless you can properly explain and objectively evidence your claims for a deity creating anything, then magic seems a pretty accurate description.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I fail to see your point, as you made the bare unevidenced assertion that:



So I pointed out that some people believe the world is flat, so what? Then you answered:


You seem to be making my point or me, which is that people believe things for which they can demonstrate no objective evidence.



Harry Potter novels describe wizardry, this is not evidence for wizardry.



The Lord of the Rings books describe the eye of Lord Sauron rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened upon a pit, a window into nothing.

Again what's your point, anyone can write anything, that doesn't make it real or true.

Is it possible your assumptions could be wrong?
How can you decide if something is true or false based on evidence if you cant even understand what is being said?

Would you even be able to recognise objective evidence of giants?
Would you be able to recognise objective evidence of prophecies or miracles?

Maybe what you think giants, prophecies, miracles, magic, etc, are ...... Is wrong.

 

[Sheldon]

Is it possible your assumptions could be wrong?

You were the one who made an assumption not me.

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WonderingWorrier said: ↑
I think what the bible and quran says is true.

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How can you decide if something is true or false based on evidence if you cant even understand what is being said?

Is that a rhetorical question?

Would you even be able to recognise objective evidence of giants?

Present some and lets take a look.

Would you be able to recognise objective evidence of prophecies or miracles?

Again present some and we will take a look.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Present some and lets take a look.

I did present some. Take a look again.

Again present some and we will take a look.

If I'm talking about a tree, or an animal, but I'm talking about you.
Have I turned you into an animal? Have I turned you into a tree?


For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Isaiah 55:12

What if you were a valley, a hill, or a mountain?
What if you were a sea, or a river, or a stream?
Depending on your height as each thing is at a different level of height.

The mountains, and the hills could sing. Just as the trees could clap their hands.


The valleys can also sing. They are covered with corn.

The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm 65:13

Can you see the corn in the valley?

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Corn - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple
Brass - Silver - Gold


Can you see the wine flowing from the mountains?
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. Amos 9:13

Can you see the rivers flowing as oil?
Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 32:14

Miracles and prophecies are measurements.
Not magic.

 

[Sheldon]

I did present some. Take a look again.

All I read were unevidenced assertions, perhaps you could link or quote what you claim is evidence please.

WonderingWorrier
Would you be able to recognise objective evidence of prophecies or miracles?

Sheldon
Again present some and we will take a look.

If I'm talking about a tree, or an animal, but I'm talking about you. Have I turned you into an animal? Have I turned you into a tree?

How on earth is that relevant, let alone evidence for prophecy or miracles?

The bible contains claims, not evidence. quoting cryptic extracts that appear to have little relevance, is hardly objective evidence for anything.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

All I read were unevidenced assertions, perhaps you could link or quote what you claim is evidence please.

I am quoting verses. Its a start. It is evidence. Please try to start comprehending what I'm saying. The word table of levels will help you to understand what I'm saying.

I can further explain if you are able to follow the concept.

Can you see the corn in the valley, the wine in the mountain, the oil in the river?

Corn and valley is in the same place (level1) in the table of levels that I'm showing.
As mountain and wine are in the same position (level3)
As oil and river is in the same position (level2).
The verses are correct in what they say.

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Oil - Wine
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Brass - Silver - Gold

I can expand on that, like with the verse that says wine flows from the mountain. The verse also says the hills will melt.

The hills melt as silver is melted (see the table).
As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the Lord have poured out my fury upon you. Ezekiel 2:22

How on earth is that relevant, let alone evidence for prophecy or miracles?

I'm trying to show you what prophecies and miracles are.
Measurements.


Are you starting to comprehend what i'm saying and showing?

We can expand on the evidence. We can talk more aout the table positions and I can add more to the table for further assessment.

Like:
Level1 - Level2- Level3
Moon - Stars - Sun
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Spear - Sword - Bow


The sun and moon are in a fixed position (with spear and bow).
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Swords become dust, and bows become stubble (spears become straw):

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2

They are measurements.
Do you understand?

 

[Sheldon]

I am quoting verses. Its a start. It is evidence. Please try to start comprehending what I'm saying. The word table of levels will help you to understand what I'm saying.

I can further explain if you are able to follow the concept.

Can you see the corn in the valley, the wine in the mountain, the oil in the river?

Corn and valley is in the same place (level1) in the table of levels that I'm showing.
As mountain and wine are in the same position (level3)
As oil and river is in the same position (level2).
The verses are correct in what they say.

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Oil - Wine
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Brass - Silver - Gold

I can expand on that, like with the verse that says wine flows from the mountain. The verse also says the hills will melt.

The hills melt as silver is melted (see the table).
As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the Lord have poured out my fury upon you. Ezekiel 2:22




I'm trying to show you what prophecies and miracles are.
Measurements.


Are you starting to comprehend what i'm saying and showing?

We can expand on the evidence. We can talk more aout the table positions and I can add more to the table for further assessment.

Like:
Level1 - Level2- Level3
Moon - Stars - Sun
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Spear - Sword - Bow


The sun and moon are in a fixed position (with spear and bow).
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Swords become dust, and bows become stubble (spears become straw):

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2

They are measurements.
Do you understand?

No, I have no idea what those quotes are supposed to be saying or claiming, or why you think they evidence anything sorry? The idea of prophesy, like the idea of a miracle, is logically flawed for me, as with prophesy apart from the fact the claims are often vague and usually unverifiable, and as are the claims they came true of course. However a larger problem is that even if one could verify beyond any reasonable doubt a claim was made that was acronymically unlikely to happen in the normal run of things, then verify again beyond any reasonable doubt that it occurred later exactly as described, all you would have is something you couldn't explain, maiming any assumption based on not having an alternative explanation, is of course a known common logical fallacy, called argumentum ad ignorantiam. Similarly with the miracles, they are defined as an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency. So again an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy by definition. There once was no scientific explanation for anything, and people assigned divine causation to everything, and in every instance where science does manage to understand anything, the causes always turn out to be entirely natural phenomena, which of course we know are possible as an objective fact, we have no such evidence for anything supernatural or any deity.

 

[RAYYAN]

I agree that all religions claim to do the right thing. But they make the claims from an assertion of authority, rather than from a rational justification of their position. The real question is how do we determine what we are actually justified in making rules about.

I don't know what to say here.

That is more of a question of legal than moral, IMO.

While respecting your opinion, I disagree with this
There are things that are legal, but not acceptable or moral to some peopl
to give examples, marijuana, capital punishment, abortion,......etc. so, what I am saying is, because something is legal, it doesn't mean it is right or wrong

But you misunderstand my question. I wasn't talking about people in general, but you in specific. What I was asking is, Can the correct understanding and application of your religious beliefs be directly responsible for bad or immoral consequences?

I don't think so, I might be bios about it, or I don't see it. you might help me see if there are any examples
Also remember, what you see as immoral might not be the case in my view

My point is that we are taking two incompatible approaches to the text. When I am talking about morality, I am talking about the well-being of thinking beings, bounded by the moral metrics of empathy, equity, cooperation and reciprocity. When you talk about morality, you are talking about what you think your god wants. I do not consider what a god (or any one being) wants to be a standard for for morality. And you may or may not think what I am talking about is morality.

I get it.
But, why do you assume that any believer takes what he is told by God as moral? Don't you think there are Muslims who reject the orders of God because they don't see it right? I am not saying I am one of them, but I am just asking the question if that is what you think

 

[RAYYAN]

On here some theists, have expressed homophobic hate speech, defended the rape of children, denied that women should have the same rights as men, just off the top of my head, and some of the posters expressing such views claimed to be Muslims.

I am not one of those just FYI
and out of interest, if you can, can you point me to the thread where the rape of children was defended by a muslim?

Disbelief is not a belief, by definition.

Potato, potato (put an accent here)

but I am not obliged to respect the belief obviously, else I would have to respect contradictory beliefs and deeply pernicious beliefs, and rationally and morally I cannot.

I respect the way you think and the way you live your life, but I don't accept it.

 

[RAYYAN]

Magic is defined as the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. So unless you can properly explain and objectively evidence your claims for a deity creating anything, then magic seems a pretty accurate description.

You can use whatever term you want, but that shows your lack of social skills and disrespect to the person you are talking to. I know Sheldon Cooper doesn't have social skills and he is a big baby, but you are not the real S. C., right?

 

[ppp]

I don't know what to say here.

I didn't mean for that to be a stumper. Sorry.

While respecting your opinion, I disagree with this
There are things that are legal, but not acceptable or moral to some peopl
to give examples, marijuana, capital punishment, abortion,......etc. so, what I am saying is, because something is legal, it doesn't mean it is right or wrong

I wasn't clear. In the case of abortion, and some other issues, I don't really care about someone's view of its morality, but whether that person thinks that his moral view should be coerced upon other via legal force. There are many things I consider to be immoral, but would not support legal sanction in my favor.

I don't think so, I might be bios about it, or I don't see it. you might help me see if there are any examples
Also remember, what you see as immoral might not be the case in my view

I don't know what specifically what you consider to immoral. We might be in perfect accord on all moral issues. Unlikely though it may be. What I am driving at is that when someone sees that their view, religious or otherwise, is unquestionably perfect that they are wrong to do so.. Even if one's view is perfect in all other ways, to live ones life (or insist that others live their life) on that assumption is dangerous and in and of itself, immoral.

I get it.
But, why do you assume that any believer takes what he is told by God as moral? Don't you think there are Muslims who reject the orders of God because they don't see it right? I am not saying I am one of them, but I am just asking the question if that is what you think

I assume that any given believer takes what he is told by God as moral for much the same reason I assume my car will start in the morning. Because it is true the vast majority of the time. But when I run across an anomalous event, I apologize if appropriate, and adjust to the situation.

The first time I ran into a Raelian who said that the Bible is true, but that the "divine" characters in the Bible were space aliens, I am pretty sure that I squealed in glee before I started in on a barrage of questions.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

No, I have no idea what those quotes are supposed to be saying or claiming, or why you think they evidence anything sorry? The idea of prophesy, like the idea of a miracle, is logically flawed for me, as with prophesy apart from the fact the claims are often vague and usually unverifiable, and as are the claims they came true of course. However a larger problem is that even if one could verify beyond any reasonable doubt a claim was made that was acronymically unlikely to happen in the normal run of things, then verify again beyond any reasonable doubt that it occurred later exactly as described, all you would have is something you couldn't explain, maiming any assumption based on not having an alternative explanation, is of course a known common logical fallacy, called argumentum ad ignorantiam. Similarly with the miracles, they are defined as an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency. So again an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy by definition. There once was no scientific explanation for anything, and people assigned divine causation to everything, and in every instance where science does manage to understand anything, the causes always turn out to be entirely natural phenomena, which of course we know are possible as an objective fact, we have no such evidence for anything supernatural or any deity.

Your idea of miracle and prophecy is wrong.
They are precise and verifiable. Thats what I'm trying to tell you.

You cant hear the words so you dont know what is being said.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:43

Look at the highlighted part of the Quran verse below. It shows signs/miracle/prophecy:

It is He Who sendeth down rain from the skies: with it We produce vegetation of all kinds: from some We produce green (crops), out of which We produce grain, heaped up (at harvest); out of the date-palm and its sheaths (or spathes) (come) clusters of dates hanging low and near: and (then there are) gardens of grapes, and olives, and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety): when they begin to bear fruit, feast your eyes with the fruit and the ripeness thereof. Behold! in these things there are signs for people who believe. Quran 6:99

You seem to be unable to comprehend the measurements. Like a sword is higher than a spear, and a bow is higher than a sword.



So lets go back over it more slowly, starting in very simple form that you should be able to comprehend.

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream

The hill is at a higher level than the valley, and the mountain is at a higher level than the hill.
Just as the river is at a higher level than the sea, and the stream is at a higher level than the river.

Do you understand?

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Magic is defined as the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. So unless you can properly explain and objectively evidence your claims for a deity creating anything, then magic seems a pretty accurate description.

You can use whatever term you want, but that shows your lack of social skills and disrespect to the person you are talking to.

I explained why the term was apropos, so it is not what i want, but you seem to have ignored that, and resorted to an ad hominem fallacy. Pretty ironic as well, given you used it to question my social skills. If people are offended by the comparison then refute it, rather than insult the person who has used it, and explained why it applies.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Disbelief is not a belief, by definition.

Potato, potato (put an accent here)

It's not a nuance of accent, the lack or absence of a belief by definition is not a belief.

 

[joelr]

Thank you again for taking the time with this amazing response
I agree that there are Muslims who bend verses from the Quran to fit a certain scientific fact and things similar to that, and that is wrong

Let me ask you this question:
However there is no evidence of the existence of God, Don't you think there is a chance he might exist?

Which God? The OT God - Yahweh is a syncretic blend of myths starting with the Canaanite versions, a warrior deity, then becoming a national God. Later in the middle ages Christian theologians added all sorts of Greek theology to Yahweh - beyond space and time, tri-omni, these are Platonic concepts.
Their isn't any evidence for these theistic Gods.
Deism, a concept that there is some type of God behind reality but does not interact with creation is possible. But religions do not use this concept of God.
Generally when religious people ask this question they mean their own version of God. Bbut do you think there is a chance Krishna or Zeus exist?