Ask about Jehovah's Witnesses

[Pegg]

does god have a conscience?

thats a tough question, i think i need to spend some time looking into it properly

Its interesting because our conscience tells us what is right from wrong and comes into effect when we commit sin, but if God has one, im not sure if his would work the same way as ours because I dont believe it is possible for God to sin...not because he can't but because it is not in his nature to break his own laws

i'll look into it further.

 

[Pegg]

Thanks for ignoring John 8:14.

im not sure how you conclude that the verse is evidence that Christ is God

Jesus says “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from..."

to me it seems he is trying to convince his accusers that he was telling them the truth. Jesus knew his testimony was true but they did not.
Why do you think this is evidence that Jesus is God?

Do you believe that God judges mankind? Im sure you do. Yet even in this passage of scripture Jesus says "15 YOU judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all"

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, do JWs have any current end of world aka end of wickedness dates, since the previous ones proved false.[/quote]
no, there are no dates. We certainly accept that we are living in the 'last days'...all of Jesus prophecies about this time period are prevalent in the world simultaneously today...so we believe the end is close but have no idea when.

Also, if say that time has not arrived in 50 years (for example), would that not undermine the JW faith?

I dont believe so, no. I know the 1975 thing undermined the faith of a number of JW's, but certainly not the majority. And actually it is noteworthy that the WT society did not put the date of the end of the world at 1975...it was never officially stated in any publication that 1975 would be the year of armageddon. What was stated was that 1975 marked the year of 6,000 years since adams creation in Eden. Many individual brothers and sisters speculated that it could mean Armageddon would occur in that year because it would mark the end of the 7th day. However, what was not taken into consideration was that Gods 7th day began AFTER the creation of Eve, not Adam. Eves age is not mentioned in the bible, so no one knows how long Adam lived before Eve was created. What we do know is that when Gods 7th day ends....he will finish his rest and proceed to put his plans into motion.

And just to add, I don't fully understand the doctrine of 144 000, can you explain it?

sure. Revelation speaks of 2 groups of people - both groups are survivors of Armageddon. One is called the 'Great Crowd' and the other the '144,000'

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Rev 14:14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. ... 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

and this is the other group John says he saw...they are distinctly different to the first group he saw who were sitting on thrones ..
Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

We believe that the 144,000 are Christs anointed disciples. We believe it is a fixed number who Jesus said would receive a seat in the kingdom of heaven
John 14:2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. 4 And where I am going YOU know the way.”

Luke 12:32 “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom

He mentioned other disciples, apart from his closest disciples, who he spoke of as 'other sheep who are not of this fold" Notice how Jesus speaks first of his disciples, but then he speaks of another group he calls 'other' sheep:

John 10:1-16
2 But he that enters through the door is shepherd of the sheep. 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. ...
7 Therefore Jesus said again: “Most truly I say to YOU, I am the door of the sheep. ...11 I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep. ...14 I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me,...
16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.


So we take this to mean that only a small flock will become co-rulers in Christs heavenly kingdom...but the rest of mankind will make up the 'Great Crowd' who will live forever on the paradise earth
Matthew 5:5, “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth,”

Psalm 37:11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace

Luke 23:42 And he went on to say: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

 

[RitalinO.D.]

So do JW's believe that the earth is only 6000 years old? And if so, how do you go about debunking carbon dating and ice cores?

 

[Pegg]

So do JW's believe that the earth is only 6000 years old? And if so, how do you go about debunking carbon dating and ice cores?

look at this video and take note of what is said at 1min 19-30seconds


[youtube]a7cF0nw5S-g[/youtube]
this is Brother Charles T Russell back in April of 1914.

 

[jelly]

thats a tough question, i think i need to spend some time looking into it properly

Its interesting because our conscience tells us what is right from wrong and comes into effect when we commit sin, but if God has one, im not sure if his would work the same way as ours because I dont believe it is possible for God to sin...not because he can't but because it is not in his nature to break his own laws

i'll look into it further.

ok, I figure it might have something to do with creation of the tree of knowledge.

 

[diosangpastol]

im not sure how you conclude that the verse is evidence that Christ is God

Jesus says “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from..."

to me it seems he is trying to convince his accusers that he was telling them the truth. Jesus knew his testimony was true but they did not.
Why do you think this is evidence that Jesus is God?

Do you believe that God judges mankind? Im sure you do. Yet even in this passage of scripture Jesus says "15 YOU judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all"

The Law required at least 2 or 3 witnesses. The Lord Jesus insisted that His testimony alone was sufficient. Since He is the highest authority (God) He needs no others to corroborate His claim concerning Himself.

 

[Sententia]

I feel like I should start a thread that reads:

If my mom was a proper and more devout Jehovah Witness I would have died as a healthy child after being cured from cancer because she refused a blood transfusion for her son.

What if a Jehovah Witness mother needs a C Section and loses enough blood that she needs some blood to be there for her child... God says let her die? God says use the rod?

I was a Jehovah Witness for most of my religious life and this belief that humans should die rather then accept a blood transfusion is not only immoral but is in my opinion criminal.

 

[Pegg]

The Law required at least 2 or 3 witnesses. The Lord Jesus insisted that His testimony alone was sufficient. Since He is the highest authority (God) He needs no others to corroborate His claim concerning Himself.

i agree that the law says 2 or 3 witnesses are needed to establish a matter, but Jesus wasnt claiming that he did not need any other witnesses

he was stressing the point that he was speaking truth

 

[diosangpastol]

i agree that the law says 2 or 3 witnesses are needed to establish a matter, but Jesus wasnt claiming that he did not need any other witnesses

he was stressing the point that he was speaking truth

And that truth did not need any other witnesses. His assertion was enough.

 

[Tarheeler]

I had my first run in with Jehovah Witnesses in years this past Saturday.

They knocked on the door early in the afternoon while I was reading.
They started their introduction and said they were Witnesses.

I smiled, held up my Jewish Study Bible, said Shabbat Shalom, and offered them a seat on the porch. They apologized and left.

It baffled me because the last time I spoke with a Witness, I made it clear I was already a member of a Baptist congregation, but the were very happy to talk to me. Now, it seemed as though they couldn't get out of the yard fast enough.

Is there any set reason for this change, or was is most likely just the reaction of the individuals?

 

[Pegg]

I had my first run in with Jehovah Witnesses in years this past Saturday.

They knocked on the door early in the afternoon while I was reading.
They started their introduction and said they were Witnesses.

I smiled, held up my Jewish Study Bible, said Shabbat Shalom, and offered them a seat on the porch. They apologized and left.

It baffled me because the last time I spoke with a Witness, I made it clear I was already a member of a Baptist congregation, but the were very happy to talk to me. Now, it seemed as though they couldn't get out of the yard fast enough.

Is there any set reason for this change, or was is most likely just the reaction of the individuals?

its hard to comment without being there personally

But if we sense that someone is defensive or aggressive, we tend to walk away from a discussion with them so as to not aggravate them. We are happy to talk to people who want to talk. Usually its when people are relaxed they are willing to talk...perhaps they could sense they interrupted you at a bad time and felt it would be better to let you get back to it??

 

[Tarheeler]

its hard to comment without being there personally

But if we sense that someone is defensive or aggressive, we tend to walk away from a discussion with them so as to not aggravate them. We are happy to talk to people who want to talk. Usually its when people are relaxed they are willing to talk...perhaps they could sense they interrupted you at a bad time and felt it would be better to let you get back to it??

I don't know, it might be possible. I was on the other side of the door after all.

I was willing to talk though. I do enjoy discussing religion; I just don't like the "but you'll go to hell" rhetoric.

Oh well. Maybe next time.

The Witnesses really do get a bad rap around here. I've known several and, while I don't agree with their theology, they've been some of the most decent guys I've even known.

 

[Pegg]

And that truth did not need any other witnesses. His assertion was enough.

if you read what Jesus said a little earlier (chpt 5) you will find that he had already confirmed that God had been his witness along with John the Baptist...So he already had 2 witnesses beside himself as to his true identity. The powerful works he was performing by Gods power, and the testimony of John the baptist

John 5:31 “If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that bears witness about me, and I know that the witness which he bears about me is true. 33 YOU have dispatched men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 However, I do not accept the witness from man, but I say these things that YOU may be saved. 35 That man was a burning and shining lamp, and YOU for a short time were willing to rejoice greatly in his light. 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father dispatched me.

now come down a little to chpt 8 and you'll see that in context Jesus is not claiming that his testimony is all that is needed...he is reiterating the fact that he is speaking truth because the Pharisees continually harassed him over the things he was teaching

12 Therefore Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.” 13 Hence the Pharisees said to him: “You bear witness about yourself; your witness is not true.” 14 In answer Jesus said to them: “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my witness is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But YOU do not know where I came from and where I am going. 15 YOU judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all.

 

[Pegg]

I don't know, it might be possible. I was on the other side of the door after all.

I was willing to talk though. I do enjoy discussing religion; I just don't like the "but you'll go to hell" rhetoric.

Oh well. Maybe next time.

The Witnesses really do get a bad rap around here. I've known several and, while I don't agree with their theology, they've been some of the most decent guys I've even known.

next time they come, ask them about hell


their answer may surprise you.

 

[TJ73]

next time they come, ask them about hell


their answer may surprise you.

What do witnesses say about Hell? My mother in law is coming to live with us, inshalah, and she is a JW. Last time she stayed for a little while I arranged some Bible studies for her and showed her the Kingdom Hall. She loved it. I would like to know little bit more.

 

[no-body]

I was willing to talk though. I do enjoy discussing religion; I just don't like the "but you'll go to hell" rhetoric.

JW don't believe in hell it's more like "but you'll go to nothingness"

Also I have another question myself on the apocalypse. Is what wiki says accurate, will everyone except for the 144,000 to be taken to heaven be resurrected on earth and given a second chance? If so I don't see the point of being a JW why not just live a good life and if you find yourself brought back to life then devote yourself to God and all those stringent rules. I mean even if you are a really good JW there are way more than 144,000 so there is little point in even trying for that.

 

[Pegg]

What do witnesses say about Hell? My mother in law is coming to live with us, inshalah, and she is a JW. Last time she stayed for a little while I arranged some Bible studies for her and showed her the Kingdom Hall. She loved it. I would like to know little bit more.

we take the bibles meaning of hell from the original hebrew word 'Sheol'

Sheol is the hebrew word that the greek writers translate to 'hades' and the english translators translate both of these words as 'hell'

What Sheol & hades mean in there original languages is simply the 'grave' or the 'place of the dead'. When we die, we are buried or concealed in a tomb, and this is why the old english word 'hell' was used...because hell is a word meaning 'conceal'

Sadly, unscrupulous religious leaders have twisted and change the meaning of hell/grave to mean a terrible place of torment and fire...this is untruth at his worst...any church who continue to teach hell to be such should have sanctions imposed on it immediately and they should be barred from owning a bible

Hell is not a fearsome place where devils reside...it is a peaceful resting place for those who are awaiting a resurrection.

 

[Pegg]

JW don't believe in hell it's more like "but you'll go to nothingness"

Also I have another question myself on the apocalypse. Is what wiki says accurate, will everyone except for the 144,000 to be taken to heaven be resurrected on earth and given a second chance? If so I don't see the point of being a JW why not just live a good life and if you find yourself brought back to life then devote yourself to God and all those stringent rules. I mean even if you are a really good JW there are way more than 144,000 so there is little point in even trying for that.

i havnt read the wiki article...do you have link?

Our belief is that everyone who has died in the past, will receive a resurrection during Christs 1,000 year millennial reign. That means people such as Noah, Abraham, John the baptist, Alexander the great, Elvis Presley, ...people of all nations, past and present, will be resurrected at that time. However, for all who are alive during the battle of Armageddon, God will decide their individual fates. This is why it is important that we still obey God now...because if Armageddon comes tomorrow or next week or next year, whatever our attitude is toward God will be how he will judge us. If we are unworthy, we will not be permitted to live nor will we receive a resurrection.


The 144,000 are a group chosen by God to rule in heaven with Christ. Christ established the offer of a heavenly hope with his 12 apostles. Only God chooses them though...we have no control over who he chooses. I cannot choose for myself to be among that group for instance...it is a calling that only they individually perceive has happened to them. God has been collecting this small group since Jesus first chose the 12 apostles...from then on throughout the centuries, others have been chosen and currently among JW's today, there are less then 10,000 who claim to be of this group.
No one tries to be a member of that group and it would be pointless to try. God chooses them himself.

 

[diosangpastol]

if you read what Jesus said a little earlier (chpt 5) you will find that he had already confirmed that God had been his witness along with John the Baptist...So he already had 2 witnesses beside himself as to his true identity. The powerful works he was performing by Gods power, and the testimony of John the baptist

John 5:31 “If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that bears witness about me, and I know that the witness which he bears about me is true. 33 YOU have dispatched men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 However, I do not accept the witness from man, but I say these things that YOU may be saved. 35 That man was a burning and shining lamp, and YOU for a short time were willing to rejoice greatly in his light. 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father dispatched me.

now come down a little to chpt 8 and you'll see that in context Jesus is not claiming that his testimony is all that is needed...he is reiterating the fact that he is speaking truth because the Pharisees continually harassed him over the things he was teaching

12 Therefore Jesus spoke again to them, saying: “I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.” 13 Hence the Pharisees said to him: “You bear witness about yourself; your witness is not true.” 14 In answer Jesus said to them: “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my witness is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But YOU do not know where I came from and where I am going. 15 YOU judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all.

You still don't get it.
I already cited John 5 in my OP.
There is no way He could say that His witness by Himself is valid if He were simply a man (John 8:14).