Ask about Jehovah's Witnesses

[Pegg]

Does that include those JW's who have had a blood transfusions?

Yep, im pretty sure it does. No one can judge the motives of another except God. If someone is under extreme pressure and they succumb to that pressure, then their heartfelt repentance is what God sees and he will act with mercy upon them.

repentence toward our sins is what grants us forgiveness while we are alive, whereas death wipes out all our sins... this is why, all who have died will most likely receive a resurrection. The only ones the bible says will not are those who have sinned against the holy spirit, its called the 'unforgivable sin'.

 

[Pegg]

Just like the false predictions in the past? You do relize what Deuteronmy 18:20-21 says about this.

no one among JW's claim to be prophets, nor do they attempt to be prophets.

What they do is read what is already written by the prophets, and try to understand what the prophecies mean or how they might be fulfilled. Doing that does not make one a prophet.

 

[diosangpastol]

i think you have the context wrong

anyone who stands up in court is asked to enter a plea... to assume that, by him entering a plea, makes him God is ludicrous

You have the milieu wrong - at least 2 or 3 witneses were required (Deuteronomy 17:6).

 

[Frank Merton]

no one among JW's claim to be prophets, nor do they attempt to be prophets.

What they do is read what is already written by the prophets, and try to understand what the prophecies mean or how they might be fulfilled. Doing that does not make one a prophet.

That strikes me as disingenuous. Anyone making predictions of a religious nature about the future is a prophet, regardless of whether they make it based on the entrails of a sacrificial goat or based on some ancient text.

 

[Pegg]

That strikes me as disingenuous. Anyone making predictions of a religious nature about the future is a prophet, regardless of whether they make it based on the entrails of a sacrificial goat or based on some ancient text.

not at all

if you pick up the bible and read the prophecies, many of which do not need interpreting, it does not make you a prophet.

if you were the one inspired to write the prophecy in the first place, then you have claim to being a prophet, but not if you are simply relaying the message of a prophet. A true prophet is not an ordinary announcer of Gods will or purpose such as a minister or preacher. They were spokesmen for God, specially chosen by him to deliver a specific message. Those messages were preserved in the bible...since the writings of the bible have been complete, there have been no new prophets because everything that God has wanted to make known, has been made known through the bible.

 

[averageJOE]

Yep, im pretty sure it does. No one can judge the motives of another except God. If someone is under extreme pressure and they succumb to that pressure, then their heartfelt repentance is what God sees and he will act with mercy upon them.

So what's the point in refusing a transfusion then???

repentence toward our sins is what grants us forgiveness while we are alive, whereas death wipes out all our sins... this is why, all who have died will most likely receive a resurrection. The only ones the bible says will not are those who have sinned against the holy spirit, its called the 'unforgivable sin'.

Again, how could you truely be happy after the resurection if a loved one dosn't get resurected? What is an example of an "unforgivable sin"? And unforgivable to who? Jehovah or people? What if it's a sin the I forgive them for but god does not?

 

[Pegg]

So what's the point in refusing a transfusion then???

the same point in rejecting fornication, adultery, smoking, drunkeness, lying, stealing, murdering etc etc etc

these things are opposed to Gods law

Again, how could you truely be happy after the resurection if a loved one dosn't get resurected? What is an example of an "unforgivable sin"? And unforgivable to who? Jehovah or people? What if it's a sin the I forgive them for but god does not?

Its hard to say exactly how anyone will feel. Perhaps we will be given an understanding of why someone we love was not resurrected? Whatever happens, God will not bring us into the resurrection in mourning.

With regard to unforgivable sin, Jesus said:
“Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.” Matthew 12:31
Blasphemy against the spirit can only come from those who have been enlightened with the truth according the Pauls words at Hebrews 6:4-6 “It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, . . . but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance...”
And we also are given the word that “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” Hebrews 10:26, 27

So 'unforgivable' sin comes from apostates...those who had been enlightened with truth, but then turned against that truth. Only God knows who has sinned in this way because it is against himself, they turn... and as the reader of hearts, he knows who has truly turned on him. These are people who God knows will not accept him or his rulership...the resurrection is to give people the opportunity to come to know God and accept his rulership and ways, but there are some people who have already made their decision and God knows they will not accept him no matter what. They are people who have known him, believed in him, knew his laws but made the willful decision to reject Jehovah. There is no point in resurrecting them because they will choose the same thing again and it could just be that God uses his power of foreknowledge to make that determination.

 

[Jensen]

So what's the point in refusing a transfusion then???

Again, how could you truely be happy after the resurection if a loved one dosn't get resurected? What is an example of an "unforgivable sin"? And unforgivable to who? Jehovah or people? What if it's a sin the I forgive them for but god does not?

Do you think that everyone goes to heaven then?

 

[averageJOE]

Do you think that everyone goes to heaven then?

Are you asking me this? Because if you are you might as well ask me if santa is real.

 

[averageJOE]

the same point in rejecting fornication, adultery, smoking, drunkeness, lying, stealing, murdering etc etc etc

these things are opposed to Gods law

The fact that JW's will equate a person who recieves a blood transfusion so stay alive to that of someone who cheats on their spouse speakes volumes.

 

[Friend of Bill W]

Pegg,

With your "Beroean" attitude - how do you feel about the changes published in the Watchtower regarding "the Generation" teaching? After all, I guess that in 1985/6 you would have originally been taught that the generation that saw 1914 would "by no means pass away" before "the end of this wicked system of things?" And now they will have.

What's your thoughts on this?

 

[Sententia]

In my humble opinion the act of believing and encouraging others based not on a medical education but instead on the superstitious babbling of ancient humans in today's world always causes oddities.

Some of the oddities may call into question morality. Outside of law we, I feel, have to live with our own choices and beliefs. We have to believe we are acting in the interest of morality.

What is moral in denying or in encouraging others to deny people they presumably care about medical care?

A good Jehovah witness is one that watches their child die while a doctor stands bedside with the blood needed to save said child.

[youtube]i4btAdfAXyE[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4btAdfAXyE
Jehovah's Witness, 15, dies after refusing blood following crash | Mail Online

I call this kids decision suicide by superstition. Its not actually all that uncommon. My mom faced the decision and what really upsets me is after the Witnesses made a big show of leaving the hospital after she allowed me to get a blood transfusion there was no issue... We were allowed to go back to the kingdom hall... I was like a celebrity for a few months... The fact that I got a blood transfusion wasn't really an issue.... But prior to getting one there was all this pressure on my mom to not allow it.

If you haven't researched this its not all that uncommon. Occasionally it makes the news where a simple transfusion could save a life but because JWs say no they die and it makes the news: Jehovah's Witness mother dies after refusing blood transfusion after giving birth to twins | Mail Online

Meh. So if I have to ask a question... How moral do you feel is it to teach others to die or to let yourself die rather then receive a blood transfusion?

 

[Katzpur]

I would like to know the exact scripture upon which the ban against blood transfusions is based.

 

[Sententia]

I would like to know the exact scripture upon which the ban against blood transfusions is based.

Pegg talks about it in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2351174-post510.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2355749-post553.html

 

[Pegg]

Pegg,

With your "Beroean" attitude - how do you feel about the changes published in the Watchtower regarding "the Generation" teaching? After all, I guess that in 1985/6 you would have originally been taught that the generation that saw 1914 would "by no means pass away" before "the end of this wicked system of things?" And now they will have.

What's your thoughts on this?

Hi, sorry for the delay in answering your question. One thing the WT does do is continue to study its own doctrines. They do not hold their doctrines as infallible but recognize that as humans, we do not come with an inbuilt knowledge bank. We can lack the correct understanding at times and its for that reason that they continually assess where they are at.

I love that about this organization. When a newer understanding is presented, i feel great about it. When the new understanding came out about the generation I felt a great relief because it did not squeeze the end of the system into a tight time frame. Of course it doesnt mean that the end (as we understand it) will never come, but it doesnt mean that that people who saw the beginning of 1914 will also see the end. The better understanding is reasoned in this way:

Can We Calculate the Length of “This Generation”?
The word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event. For example, Exodus 1:6 tells us: “Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.” Joseph and his brothers varied in age, but they shared a common experience during the same time period. Included in “that generation” were some of Joseph’s brothers who were born before him. Some of these outlived Joseph. (Gen. 50:24) Others of “that generation,” such as Benjamin, were born after Joseph was born and may have lived on after he died.

this opens the door for many more people to learn about Jehovah and accept his sovereignty in their lives....many who know him already but have not made the needed changes in their lives will now have more time to do so...its a wonderful thing.

 

[Pegg]

I would like to know the exact scripture upon which the ban against blood transfusions is based.

Hi Katzpur,

The jerusalem apostles sent a letter to the congregations with a directive about certain mosaic laws that should continue to be adhered to by gentile believers. The contents of that letter is found in the book of Acts 15:

22 Then the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation favored sending chosen men from among them to Antioch along with Paul and Bar′na‧bas, namely, Judas who was called Bar′sab‧bas and Silas, leading men among the brothers; 23 and by their hand they wrote:
“The apostles and the older men, brothers, to those brothers in Antioch and Syria and Ci‧li′cia who are from the nations: Greetings! 24 Since we have heard that some from among us have caused YOU trouble with speeches, trying to subvert YOUR souls, although we did not give them any instructions, 25 we have come to a unanimous accord and have favored choosing men to send to YOU together with our loved ones, Bar′na‧bas and Paul, 26 men that have delivered up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore dispatching Judas and Silas, that they also may report the same things by word. 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication

The apostles were guided by holy spirit, the same holy spirit that guided the commands given to the hebrews. Gods view of blood had not changed
The law that God gave to Noah contained the directive to pour out the blood of any animal before eating it
Gen 9:3-5 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for YOU. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to YOU. 4 Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat. 5 And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back

And this law about blood was given to the hebrews under the mosaic law:
Deut 12:23 Simply be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the soul and you must not eat the soul with the flesh. 24 You must not eat it. You should pour it out upon the ground as water. 25 You must not eat it, in order that it may go well with you and your sons after you, because you will do what is right in Jehovah’s eyes.

Leviticus 17:10 “‘As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in YOUR midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood, and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people.


The apostles were convinced that of all the mosaic laws, blood was still something that God required abstinence from. Taking another creatures blood into ones own body was not something God wanted people to do because that blood represented the individuals life from God...their soul thus it was sacred to God.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I love that about this organization. When a newer understanding is presented, i feel great about it. When the new understanding came out about the generation I felt a great relief because it did not squeeze the end of the system into a tight time frame. Of course it doesnt mean that the end (as we understand it) will never come, but it doesnt mean that that people who saw the beginning of 1914 will also see the end.

I don't mean to offend Pegg, but I have to ask. How is this different than the cults and doomsday theorists that predict the end of times over and over and end up having to explain why it didn't end?

 

[Pegg]

I don't mean to offend Pegg, but I have to ask. How is this different than the cults and doomsday theorists that predict the end of times over and over and end up having to explain why it didn't end?

well for one thing, we dont prescribe to an 'end of the world' theory

For us, the 'end' is the 'salvation'

It is the end of a wicked world 'system' which is corrupt, oppressive and destructive. The bible speaks only of the end of wickedness, of corrupt rulers and governments and organizations that oppress mankind. Our 'end of the world' is the beginning of Gods takeover.

 

[Friend of Bill W]

Hi, sorry for the delay in answering your question. One thing the WT does do is continue to study its own doctrines. They do not hold their doctrines as infallible but recognize that as humans, we do not come with an inbuilt knowledge bank. We can lack the correct understanding at times and its for that reason that they continually assess where they are at.

I love that about this organization. When a newer understanding is presented, i feel great about it. When the new understanding came out about the generation I felt a great relief because it did not squeeze the end of the system into a tight time frame. Of course it doesnt mean that the end (as we understand it) will never come, but it doesnt mean that that people who saw the beginning of 1914 will also see the end. The better understanding is reasoned in this way:

Can We Calculate the Length of “This Generation”?
The word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event. For example, Exodus 1:6 tells us: “Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.” Joseph and his brothers varied in age, but they shared a common experience during the same time period. Included in “that generation” were some of Joseph’s brothers who were born before him. Some of these outlived Joseph. (Gen. 50:24) Others of “that generation,” such as Benjamin, were born after Joseph was born and may have lived on after he died.

this opens the door for many more people to learn about Jehovah and accept his sovereignty in their lives....many who know him already but have not made the needed changes in their lives will now have more time to do so...its a wonderful thing.

Thanks, Pegg, but what time scale does this new light on the generation teaching actually mean? I'm not sure I actually understand what it is saying; I'm a Geordie (that's someone from NE England), and the football off-side rule is about as complex as we get up there.

Can you bracket a date, say within the next 10 to 30 years? Or does it mean for longer, or shorter?

I guess I'm asking if there is a more specific timetable for the end of wickedness to happen.

 

[Pegg]

Thanks, Pegg, but what time scale does this new light on the generation teaching actually mean? I'm not sure I actually understand what it is saying; I'm a Geordie (that's someone from NE England), and the football off-side rule is about as complex as we get up there.

Can you bracket a date, say within the next 10 to 30 years? Or does it mean for longer, or shorter?

I guess I'm asking if there is a more specific timetable for the end of wickedness to happen.

thats the million dollar question and its something christs followers have been keen to know since christianity was founded. Jesus apostles were the first to ask for the day and hour and the answer they got from Jesus was this:
“Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father,” Mark 13:32. Simple answer is that the end will come when God says its time...only he knows when. This is why he warned christians to keep spiritually alert. he said at Matthew 24:
43 “But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.

Jesus provided information about what his followers should keep a watchful eye for...the events were to be a 'sign' so that his followers would know they were nearing that time. The events would have to be occurring simultaneously and they would have to be significant enough for many people to be affected by them.

the sign is found in Matthew 24:
3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.


What we do know is that before the 'end' comes, there will be a period of time called the 'last days'. That period of time is when the 'sign' would become prevalent to all. I think the communication age has made us all more aware of exactly what state the world is in... we are seeing earthquakes in one place after another, pestilences, wars etc all in an instant of time so there really should be no one who is not aware of what is going on in the world. Perhaps what they are not aware of is that these very things are the 'sign' that Jesus told his followers to watch for. Also, the 'last days' actually began in 1914 which is the year calculated from the bible book of Daniel to mark the 'end of the gentile times' or 'appointed times of the nations' so for us, there is no doubt that we are in that period of time right now. How long it goes on for I cannot tell you. But here is what the bible says about time:

Matthew 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

If you think about it, we have the ability to completely destroy ourselves today, but fortunately, God will step in before things get too far out of control . he will 'cut short' the wait in order to save mankind. My advice to you is to learn now what is required in recognizing Gods sovereignty because very soon, his sovereignty will be the only one we'll have to look to.