Ask me about the Third Reich, National Socialism, Hitler & the Holocaust

[MD]

I have always been impressed by the Wermacht, they simultaneously took on the entire Western world as well as the USSR. Do you think if the Nazis had tried to incorporate the Jewish people and others into their war machine instead of killing them, they would have had an easier time fighting the war? Seems like there were a lot of wasted resources and loss of lifecin running the camps and the Holocaust. Imagine if Einstein and other German Jewish had a sense of German nationalism...the Reich would have been unstoppable imo.

P.s. Have you seen the German show Generation War? It's like a German Band of Brothers

 

[Nietzsche]

I have always been impressed by the Wermacht, they simultaneously took on the entire Western world as well as the USSR. Do you think if the Nazis had tried to incorporate the Jewish people and others into their war machine instead of killing them, they would have had an easier time fighting the war? Seems like there were a lot of wasted resources in running the camps.

There were some in the Volkische movement(the thing that the NSDAP sprang from most directly) who were happy to differentiate between Jews and German Jews. They recognized, especially during & after WW1, that the Jewish community in Germany had sent (percentage wise) more of their fathers, sons & husbands to die for Kaiser & Vaterland than 'Just' Germans(Catholic or Protestant).

But this would not be a Nazi Germany. This would be an Authoritarian-Fascist Germany that might appear similar on the outside to Nazi Germany, but it you cannot call it that. What made the NSDAP so different was their obsession with Jews and their supposed power. That's what Hitler ran on. At the time, most thought it was just rhetoric. There were even Jews who voted for the Nazis in '33 because they liked everything else about them. It would only become obvious later that this was not just pandering to the lowest common denominator.

So, Germany could've incorporated their Jews(the most assimilated & patriotic in all of Europe, bar none) yes. Without doubt. But it wouldn't be a Nazi Germany. Honestly, the closest you'd get to a "Nazi-Jew Alliance" would be if Hitler were killed shortly after taking power and Goering took over the reigns. Goering just didn't care one way or the other about the Jews("I decide who is a Jew!"). But it would still not really be a Nazi party. For one, you'd see a Second Night of the Long Knives. Goering couldn't stand Himmler or Ribbentrop(they were both cowards, frankly, useless chicken-farmer and failed champagne salesmen).

P.s. Have you seen the German show Generation War? It's like a German Band of Brothers

I have not. Is it good?

 

[MD]

It's really good imo

 

[Flankerl]

It's like a German Band of Brothers

Oh hell no. It simply is not.

 

[Nietzsche]

Oh hell no. It simply is not.

I think he's referring to the production values and such, not the individuals it depicts.

 

[Flankerl]

And thats a hell no again. It simply isn't anything like BoB, be it story or production values.

 

[MD]

I think he's referring to the production values and such, not the individuals it depicts.

I suppose I should have been clearer. It's like BOB in the sense that it depicts German soldiers during the war, with battles and such, although it does focus on other aspects of German society during the war. It's a lot more depressing than BOB, and it does explore social and political themes a lot more deeply, but a good chunk of the series focuses on a band of German soldiers fighting the USSR and dealing with the war.

 

[Nietzsche]

And thats a hell no again. It simply isn't anything like BoB, be it story or production values.

As someone who has seen many a WW2 series, from what I've been able to see regarding the uniforms & equipment, it's top-notch. Something that prevents me from enjoying a lot of WW2 Media is how often they screw up what the average Jerry soldier looked like, in in what branch he was in, what he'd be carrying, and so on. And how they tend to show them using American-style tactics.

The Germans used a completely different method of infantry assaults. In the US, the Rifleman was the backbone of the infantry. Everything else in the infantry was to support the Rifleman. The Germans, however, placed the Machine-gun, be it an Mg34 or Mg42, as the backbone of the infantry. This is what let them punch so far above their weight, and why they could put up such stiff resistance.

It didn't hurt that they introduced Standardized Ammo long before other armies did. The Mg34? Took the same round as the K98, the main German rifle(the best bolt-action rifle ever developed). So if you were out of belt ammo? You could refill the belts with extra 7.92 Mauser rounds, which every German soldier had on him. It was less a "machine-gun" in the sense we think of today. It was an automatic rifle that, if you knew the gun well, you could use like a rifle. I don't mean carrying it like Rambo, I mean making precision shots at long-distance. Add in a tripod mount and you have what amounts to a fully-automatic sniper rifle just as accurate as the K98. When American forces first encountered German soldiers, the Germans quickly learned that the Americans were counting their rifle rounds. So what they'd do is have a guy with a K98 shoot at them, try to hit them, and when he ran out and the American popped his head up, thinking the other guy was reloading...pop. Dead.

Or, they'd use the semi-auto, and fire off a few rounds roughly as quickly as if a rifleman were working the bolt, to again make the Americans think they were fighting riflemen...and then let loose the 34.

The Mg42 was exactly the same, except it has the highest rate of fire of any single-barrel machinegun ever made, firing so quickly that you cannot hear the individual bolt movements. It sounded like a buzzsaw from hell. And it was cheaper & easier to make than the 34. The Bundesrepublik Heer still uses it to this day, designated Mg3.

 

[Bunyip]

SS Officers of what branch? If it's the Administrative SS, then they're likely being watched directly by Himmler, in which case it'll be astounding they got that far because you need, if memory serves, to prove your Germanic lineage back eight or more generations just to be eligible. If it's the Waffen SS, the same restrictions apply though because of Himmler's utter incompetence in military affairs I wonder what use it would be.

The SS honestly held nothing terribly important.

Depends on when he won. A Jewish State, or rather a Jewish Dumping Ground might well exist if he wins sometime between 1939 and 1941. Any time after that, though, and the extermination process has already been put in motion.

Any state the Jews would get however would likely be a death sentence anyway. The places put forward were Madagascar, Siberia and such.


Depends on the degree of victory. But this is what their absolute maximum(and honestly utterly unobtainable) claims looked like;

Here.


If Italy stays in the fight and also wins, you're going to be under Mussolini's boot-heel. If Italy is knocked out but Germany later wins(this it's post 42') Muslims, like Judaism, will be something you only find in history books.


Allies of convenience, nothing more. To be sent eventually to the camps none the less, just like the Ukrainian and Russian collaborators.


You'd have to rework everything about National Socialism so they could accept "Jewish Physics" to allow them to build a bomb, and then you'd also have to find a way to fund that program without cutting out something from the conventional front.


More or less, though Arabia & Anatolia was slated for Germandom eventually. The 'Lebensraum' concept had no set end. It was always to be pushed further and further east as the time dictated.


Europe only existed to serve German purposes. If you weren't Germanic, and thus not incorporated into the Reich, you could very well be slated for extermination eventually. If you want to imagine the future of Europe in a Nazi victory scenario, all you have to do is imagine a mass grave or crematorium.

I doubt it to be honest. Madmen are nothing new, had Hitler won the world would be a little different - but probably not much so. Hitler was still nuts and would most likely have lost the next elections had he lived to see them.

 

[Avi1001]

As for the people, most find this hard to believe but the ordinary German didn't have much inkling of the Holocaust. Concentration Camps were initially just that, camps to put undesirable people. A place to put trouble-makers & political dissidents and other enemies of the state. They might be worked to death, but it was never for the purpose of destroying an entire people. And even if the average German did find out, the Gestapo's reach was almost infinite. They were one of, perhaps the best Secret Police in history. People worried for their lives and the lives of their loved ones.

I read a few "traditional German perspectives", in this thread, and I have never accepted them. This description that you offer, is a cop-out, a rationalization, an excuse for German behavior during the period of Nazi Germany. The Germans are, and have always been too intelligent to....not have known what was going on...I don't buy it...!!!!

 

[Avi1001]

...However, I must stress again; Germany undoubtedly harboured xenophobic feelings. But they were no worse than anywhere else in Europe at the time. Honestly, if you want to see where Jews and such had it worst, just look to Poland.

Here's the second misconception....the Germans were bad...but no worse than the rest of Europe....I'm not buying this one, either....the Germans have always been the most nationalistic and worst in Europe....but you're right....Poland and Russia give them a run for the money...!!!!

 

[Avi1001]

My fascination is because there is something strangely appealing about the notion of Lebensraum, turning Eastern Europe & European Russia into a massive settler-colony. A sort of "Wild East".....

Another very strange view..."appealing" to whom...????

 

[Avi1001]

.....I was 12 or so. It snowballed from then on out. My true passion, however, is for Prussia. And I shall admit something; I have a fondness for Hermann Goering. I don't think he was a racist. He just loved power and hurting people. I see Reinhard Heydrich the same way. If they could've gotten away with it I don't doubt either of them would've been slaughtering their fellow 'Aryans'. But my fondness of him comes from how he lived. A true hedonist. That speaks to me.....

And you are trying to convince us that your view makes sense...????

Overall.....I would say you have a lot of knowledge of WWII and the Nazi's.....but you are perpetuating the rationalization of benign German behavior....unfortunately, there was much....pure evil...that really cannot be explained any other way...!!!!...

Also, I note that the last 4 posts that I responded to....as well as this whole thread...are essentially your opinion.....I believe without even a single reference.....can you provide any reputable references to support these speculations...???

 

[Lyndon]

Yeah the overall tone of the thread seems to be a anti Jewish, German apologist, Hitler didn't do a good enough job, kind of attitude.

 

[Avi1001]

Yeah the overall tone of the thread is a German apologist, Hitler didn't do a good enough job, kind of attitude.

Bingo....it's couched in detailed explanations....but the underlying thesis is clear....!!!!....and it's unfortunate......you are no Nietzsche, sir...!!!!

 

[Desert Snake]

The 'what ifs' cloud the actual information with make believe 'purpose'. Hmm sort of like looking at a painting and describing the intended meaning of the art as opposed to artistic techniques.

 

[Flankerl]

the Germans have always been the most nationalistic

[citation needed]

and worst in Europe

Well for what its worth, they didn't fill the stomachs of their victims with boiling urine, excrement, liquid manure, and sullage.

That's an old Swedish tradition. How come they are seen as nice people?

can you provide any reputable references to support these speculations

Look who's talking.

 

[oldbadger]

Hello Nietzsche,
Sometimes US members mention how the US saved the UK during the 39-45 war.
Suppose that the US had not, and that Europe and the UK had all been overrun and incorporated into Hitler's empire.....
How do you think we Brits would have coped?
Where would we Brits be 'at' now?

Thanx Old-B

 

[Bunyip]

Hello Nietzsche,
Sometimes US members mention how the US saved the UK during the 39-45 war.
Suppose that the US had not, and that Europe and the UK had all been overrun and incorporated into Hitler's empire.....
How do you think we Brits would have coped?
Where would we Brits be 'at' now?

Thanx Old-B

They would be an industrial superpower. With sqdly less ethnic diversity.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wonder. Nazi Germany would have to deal with its own lack of vision and with the advance of the Soviets from East.

I have a hard time attempting to believe the Nazi regime could last. The USA participation in WW2 shortened its life somewhat and greatly reduced Soviet influence in Germany, but I think it is quite a stretch to call it decisive in defeating Hitler.