Ask the Jews

[HiddenDjinn]

Does Judaism say that god is unable to become a human or other life form then? Meaning this is not within god's power?

The Torah clearly teaches not to worship anything that has a physical form.
In the same passage, it teaches to worship HaShem only.
To me, that means that HaShem doesn't take physical form. I didn't say unable, but doesn't.

 

[Caladan]

Technically, that wasn't HaShem. That was an angel.

Do more research. versions abundant on this one, as on any other Israelite and Jewish resource.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Do Jews actually believe other gods exist? That is to say, do other beings exist that the nations call gods, but in Jewish view probably aren't gods?

 

[Caladan]

Common. you can do better than that. we are commanded to smash the idols.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Common. you can do better than that. we are commanded to smash the idols.

Ah well there are times the Torah makes it sound like these other gods might actually exist. In some translations they're even called "demon gods".

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Do Jews actually believe other gods exist? That is to say, do other beings exist that the nations call gods, but in Jewish view probably aren't gods?

There are no other deities...just one Creator. Aside from that, I'll use an expression from the US South: You can believe what you want--you can believe that you can jump in front of a moving train and think it'll stop to save you, but that doesn't mean we won't bury you after you try it.


EDIT: I had to clean that up so that I could post it on this forum.

 

[Levite]

Ah well there are times the Torah makes it sound like these other gods might actually exist. In some translations they're even called "demon gods".

In all fairness, though we don't believe that any other gods exist-- as has been said, we only believe in One God-- there have been some Jewish authorities who deemed that some of the gods that other tribes worshipped in ancient days were demons or other mischievous or malevolent supernatural but non-divine creatures that masqueraded as gods.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So Judaism does or did have a belief in demons at some point?

 

[Levite]

So Judaism does or did have a belief in demons at some point?

Yeah. Most Jews today, of course, don't believe in them. Some in the Orthodox world still do, but mostly because if they didn't, they would have to admit that something in the Talmud might be wrong, which they find an unthinkable prospect.

But there are always a handful, in and out of Orthodoxy, that still have their reasons to believe.

In any case, demons in Jewish metaphysical traditions were never associated with "fallen angels" like in Christianity, since we have no real tradition of fallen angels. The Rabbis of the Talmud believed in demons very strongly, and yet they admittedly quite freely that they didn't really understand the nature of demons. Whatever they were thought to be, and whatever their supposed origins, the Talmud makes it clear that they respond to authority: exorcism works, as well as binding them by God's name, and they also have a demon king, Ashmodai, who can bring them in line, if he himself can be brought into line.

They are usually portrayed as more mischievous, chaotic, and embracing of base appetites, than actually vicious or malicious, though there were apparently thought to be several different kinds, with differing attributes and character types.

If you're interested, a good place to begin learning more is a book called Jewish Magic and Superstition: A Study In Folk Religion, by Joshua Trachtenberg.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

And in the Jewish mind what Pagans say of some our gods makes a Jew think of a demon in their minds?

 

[Caladan]

And in the Jewish mind what Pagans say of some our gods makes a Jew think of a demon in their minds?

Oh no. I just find it superstitious and completely irrelevant to what we are working with in the modern era.

 

[Levite]

And in the Jewish mind what Pagans say of some our gods makes a Jew think of a demon in their minds?

I think it depends very much on the Jewish individual.

A few might think of demons.

Many might simply dismiss polytheistic beliefs as misguided and primitive.

Some might think such beliefs offensive to God.

Some might simply believe that Pagans speaking of many gods are people who simply mistake aspects of the One God for different, separate entities.

And I'm sure there are probably some other opinions that I can't think of.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So I have heard many things about the Jewish idea of the messiah, including that some Jews have believed in the idea of a "suffering messiah" akin to Jesus. Is this true? This isn't a proselytization attempt, just a question.

 

[David_2010]

Yeah. Most Jews today, of course, don't believe in them. Some in the Orthodox world still do, but mostly because if they didn't, they would have to admit that something in the Talmud might be wrong, which they find an unthinkable prospect.

But there are always a handful, in and out of Orthodoxy, that still have their reasons to believe.

In any case, demons in Jewish metaphysical traditions were never associated with "fallen angels" like in Christianity, since we have no real tradition of fallen angels. The Rabbis of the Talmud believed in demons very strongly, and yet they admittedly quite freely that they didn't really understand the nature of demons. Whatever they were thought to be, and whatever their supposed origins, the Talmud makes it clear that they respond to authority: exorcism works, as well as binding them by God's name, and they also have a demon king, Ashmodai, who can bring them in line, if he himself can be brought into line.

I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right, but, wasn't the demon king, Ashmodai said to have been a Jewish demon (like he studied the Torah, observed the Holy Days, etc). Would that have made him someone who was considered a good demon, or was he still considered dangerous?.

They are usually portrayed as more mischievous, chaotic, and embracing of base appetites, than actually vicious or malicious, though there were apparently thought to be several different kinds, with differing attributes and character types.

If you're interested, a good place to begin learning more is a book called Jewish Magic and Superstition: A Study In Folk Religion, by Joshua Trachtenberg.

I definitely love Trachtenberg's book, I haven't finished it yet, but, I do really like it. I do have another question, though, since demons were brought up, is Lilith one of the few Jewish demons who come close to being evil (I heard one person say, Lilith is the closest thing Judaism has to the Christian Satan), but, I've also read that, in Jewish Mysticism, Lilith is said to be the Bride of God, while The Shekinah is in exile.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So what are some of the Jewish theories as to what the origin of demons actually is?

 

[David_2010]

So what are some of the Jewish theories as to what the origin of demons actually is?

I'm sure other people will be able to give better explanations, but, I think there are different accounts, some believe demons are incomplete beings, that weren't given bodies during Creation (or something similar to that), I think others believed that demons were the remanent of forces and beings from other universes and realities that preceeded this one, and, I think, Kabbalists, who were influenced by Luria, thought demonic forces/the Qliphoth were the "husks" left over after God's light shattered the vessels.

This link might be helpful:

Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism: Jewish Demonology: Demon Origins

The author has a book out called 'The Encyclopedia of Jewish Myth, Magic and Mysticism', which sounds really amazing, and is one book I want to get.

Also, I've heard good things about Howard Schwartz's 'Lilith's Cave: Jewish Tales of the Supernatural', which is, apparently, really good, if you want to read stories about demons, and other things, from Jewish Folklore. It's another book I want to get (I've got his 'Tree of Souls', which I'm really enjoying).

Anyway, I hope this helps .

David.

 

[Levite]

So what are some of the Jewish theories as to what the origin of demons actually is?

There are a ton and a half of different stories.

Some say that demons are what you might call "rough drafts" of humans or angels or some other creature entirely that God left "unfinished" because they were inherently flawed.

Some say that demons are manifestations of the negative side of divine energy, the Sitra Achra. Sort of "anti-angels," if you were. Kind of a metaphysical matter/antimatter thing.

Lurianic Kabbalah, which is quite its own thing, and more than a little weird, postulates that all negative aspects of creation are attributable to a primordial cataclysm of a radical imbalance of the divine energy, and demons therefore are fragments of the cataclysm that have turned negative in their shattering away from the heart of Divine order.

Some have said that demons were the spawn of Adam Kadmon (the primal Platonic ideal of Adam) and his first wife, Lilit.

Some have said that there were a kind of negative angel that God sent down to earth in antediluvian times that took physical forms, gained mortal appetites, and sired children on human women, some of whom became mostly human mythic figures of might, and some of whom became mostly non-human demons.

Some have said that demons are souls of people lost between the worlds, who have become crazed and full of rage, and come back to this world strong and malicious.

Some have said that demons are merely a kind of spiritual creature, below the angels, but unlike humans, that inhabit the wild places and so forth, who have a tendency to be misanthropic, reclusive, and violent.

There are many variations on these views, and some other views also, but I can't recall more off the top of my head.

I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right, but, wasn't the demon king, Ashmodai said to have been a Jewish demon (like he studied the Torah, observed the Holy Days, etc). Would that have made him someone who was considered a good demon, or was he still considered dangerous?

Yeah, if you can get your hands on a Schottenstein Talmud, you can read this great story, one of the world's longest tangents, in Tractate Gittin 68ab, all about Ashmodai King of Demons, and one of the things you find is that every day, he spends the morning in Heaven, learning Torah at the Heavenly Yeshivah.

You gotta keep in mind that the Rabbis of the Talmud created an ideal of the world in their own image, and in their literature, imposed it on reality. So when one reads Talmud critically, one can spot a number of flaws in the reasoning, as well as having to sort out, from time to time, what actually was the truth about the world at the time of the Rabbis, and what do they want to believe was the truth. The same thing kind of goes for their midrash, as well. So in their world, everyone studies Torah. Even the King of Demons studies Torah. The fact that it seems odd that he might do so and yet still be, if not really evil, certainly quite unpleasant, doesn't seem to have struck the Rabbis as needing resolution. For which there really is none. One either lets it go, or not, I'm afraid.

Or, as one of my professors at rabbinical school said, "Sure, he studied Torah every day. But there's nothing that says he learned anything from it."

I definitely love Trachtenberg's book, I haven't finished it yet, but, I do really like it. I do have another question, though, since demons were brought up, is Lilith one of the few Jewish demons who come close to being evil (I heard one person say, Lilith is the closest thing Judaism has to the Christian Satan), but, I've also read that, in Jewish Mysticism, Lilith is said to be the Bride of God, while The Shekinah is in exile.

Demons have gone through a lot of different conceptualizations through Jewish history, and depending upon where in the Jewish world they were being written about. But it was in the Babylonian communities, and then in the communities in Israel with whom the Babylonians interacted that there first appear talismans and amulets concerning demons and malign spirits that bring ill-health, dangers, and other misfortunes on people. That was a step in a darker direction, and during the Middle Ages and early Renaissance, demons were thought of us much more worrisome, much more evil, in the sense of having all kinds of malicious schemes against people, thirsting for blood sometimes, or such things.

It seems like, for whatever reasons, demons became rather less feared and focused-on during the Enlightenment (not that the majority of Jews in Europe were becoming Enlightened), and in the Mizrahi communities, while demons were still widely spoken of until a generation or two ago (and occasionally are still spoken of), they seem much less sweepingly evil, and more akin to the petty thugs they were once thought of as being.

Lilit started off as a midrash about rebelling against God's will, and perhaps about what the Rabbis of the Talmud perceived as the perennial imperfection of woman's nature (those guys were not feminists, unfortunately). She took on a persona in culture not long after as the spirit of jealousy, being kind of a succubus, going after men's spilled seed (a midrashic object lesson about masturbation, possibly), and using it to have demon babies, and, initially, doing wicked things to women, because she envied them their married happiness.

Over the course of the following millennium, she kind of passed into an uber-demoness character, mother of a host of demons, willing and eager to do all sorts of horrible things to people because of her mad jealousy at their goodness and happiness. I think in that particular strain of the mythos, she probably is, in some ways, the closest analogue to Satan we have, and for good reason: I would guess, as I believe some others have also, that stories of Lilit were increasingly influenced by Christian demonology over time. Our demonology and attandant magic and rituals were "low Kabbalah," being very much folk beliefs, and having little support either from mainstream rabbis or from greater Kabbalists.

Which is in part, I think why the authors of the Zohar sort of tried to re-appropriate her and elevate her up a notch into a sort of anti-Shechinah of the Sitra Achra, or of a negative influence on the Atik Yomin (higher aspects of the emanations), blocking or diffusing the flow of shefa (divine energy) through the Ze'er Anpin (the lower aspects of the emanatons).

Frankly, I never cared for the Lilit mythos. It started off reeking too much of misogyny, and ended up smacking too much of Christian syncretism. I don't hold that there is a Lilit, personally.

 

[Zardoz]

...
Lurianic Kabbalah, which is quite its own thing, and more than a little weird, postulates that all negative aspects of creation are attributable to a primordial cataclysm of a radical imbalance of the divine energy, and demons therefore are fragments of the cataclysm that have turned negative in their shattering away from the heart of Divine order...

Yes, yes, Shevirat ha-Kelim, the Breaking of the Vessels that culminated in the creation of the physical universe, that is what I was taught. The demons are the spiritual toxic waste by-product of that cataclysmic event. They are chaos and deceit incarnate, and feed off our superstitions to become whatever bogeyman we fear.

I agree about Lilith myths, never did ring true to me.

 

[Zardoz]

Technically, that wasn't HaShem. That was an angel.

Do more research. versions abundant on this one, as on any other Israelite and Jewish resource.

Just to add my version, that was the guardian angel of Esau.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Did anyone see my messiah question above?