Ask the Jews

[Zardoz]

Sorry, missed it. There is a view that there are two distinct messianic figures. Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben David.

Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously, I hold such a view, but this is not the DIR to get into that.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

And is Messiah ben Joseph whom I've heard some have viewed might be a suffering messiah?

 

[Levite]

So I have heard many things about the Jewish idea of the messiah, including that some Jews have believed in the idea of a "suffering messiah" akin to Jesus. Is this true? This isn't a proselytization attempt, just a question.

There have been a vast number of now mostly obscure works written about the messiah, which have included a large number of greatly varying notions about who the messiah could be, what his mission is, how to recognize him, and so forth.

Most of these works never acheived great prominence, mostly because this seems to be an area wherein Jews feel comfortable with a certain amount of flexibility of doctrine, even to the point of some grey area, especially today.

I personally have not encountered in my readings any mentions that I recall of a "suffering messiah" akin to Jesus. But of course, that doesn't mean that such an idea might be out there in the more obscure or fringey materials, or as a passing idea in some philosophical discussion that was recorded, and I just don't know about it.

If it exists, it certainly is not something that has ever been accepted into any mainstream messianic motifs or opinions. It seems like it would be, if not philosophically counterproductive, at least distastefully quasi-syncretic, if it did exist.

 

[Rakhel]

I was always kinda partial to the Lilith stories. I mean, the very first feminist and the first to tell G-d "no." What woman could argue with that?

 

[Kathryn]

Someone may have asked this already, but if so I've missed it.

This is a very basic question with what I am sure is a very basic answer.

Why don't Jews sacrifice animals anymore?

 

[kai]

Someone may have asked this already, but if so I've missed it.

This is a very basic question with what I am sure is a very basic answer.

Why don't Jews sacrifice animals anymore?

I was thinking of asking the same question ,is it because theres no Temple?

 

[Levite]

Someone may have asked this already, but if so I've missed it.

This is a very basic question with what I am sure is a very basic answer.

Why don't Jews sacrifice animals anymore?

Because sacrifice was only supposed to be done in the Temple, and noplace else. When the Temple was destroyed, it was deemed that all of the laws and rituals concerning animal sacrifice were in abeyance until such time as a Third Temple could be constructed and properly dedicated. Which has not been able to be done; and as the years have passed, the concept of the building of a Third Temple has become irreversibly intertwined with the concept of messianism, so that nearly all agree that a Temple will not be built until the messiah comes.

There are relatively small, but vocal, segment of ultra-Orthodox Jews who deem that building a Third Temple might actually help to bring the messiah, and thus they have established training facilities for priests and manufactured what they believe to be the appropriate utensils and tools that were used in the Second Temple for use in a proposed Third Temple. However, the rest of the Jewish People don't see things that way. Some of the left wing of Judaism, such as a statistical majority of Reform Jews, don't even believe a Third Temple will be built-- and they tend to have radically reinterpreted messianism, also. But nearly all other Jews at least agree that the idea of trying to build a Third Temple now or in the near future is insanity, given that the necessary location is more or less currently occupied by the Dome of the Rock, and even if it were morally acceptable to simply remove the Dome of the Rock (which is by no means certain), doing so would start a disastrous war that we would almost surely lose.

In any case, there are many, mostly in the non-Orthodox communities, who feel that, even if the Temple should be built someday, there will not be a re-institution of animal sacrifices. They feel that we have simply moved past that phase, and that prayer is actually both ethically and aesthetically better; the prayers that we have in the fixed liturgy that regularly invoke a rebuilding of the Temple and a reinstitution of sacrifices are usually reinterpreted by these people to be about metaphorical sacrifices.

 

[Levite]

And is Messiah ben Joseph whom I've heard some have viewed might be a suffering messiah?

Let's say that in mainstream Jewish thought, the common depictions of Messiah ben Joseph in Rabbinic Literature are not of a suffering messiah, per se. But yes, there is at least one small group, well outside the main stream of Jewish thought, that has taken that interpretation.

 

[Ben Masada]

What's the main reason(s) Jews don't accept what Christians call the New Testament? . .

IMHO, the main reason why we don't accept the NT is because of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which is the theme of the whole NT. A Christian
preacher cannot open his or her mouth from any pulpit without promoting that infamous antisemitic policy. Also IMHO, Replacement Theology is the worst insult to the Jewish People.

 

[Ben Masada]

And is Messiah ben Joseph whom I've heard some have viewed might be a suffering messiah?

This is IMO, the truth about Messiah ben Joseph:



The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then whom did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah 1:1: "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem." That's the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. Or the House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21. Now, we have extablished a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and the Suffering Servant is Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel (the Jewish People) is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epithet of son of God, there is no problem. We can have it from Exodus 4:22,23. Here's what it says in there: "Israel is My son; so, let My son go, that he may serve Me," says the Lord. That's why Hosea said that "When Israel was a child, God said, out of Egypt I called My son." (Hosea 11:1) Then, the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew plagiarized from Hosea and applied it to Jesus, which even Luke didn't agree by ignoring that Jesus was ever in Egypt at all.

Last but not least, Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially in exile, is of a Messianic leader to lead or inspire the Messiah to return home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah to rebuild the Temple; which he contributed heavily finacially; and in our modern times, we had Herzl who was also one for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

How about Jesus, what do we have to classify him as at least a Messianic leader? Well, when he was born Israel was at home, although suffering under the foreign power of the Romans. As he grew up that suffering only got worse. When he left, the collective Messiah was expelled into another exile of about 2000 years. Not even as a Messianic leader he could not classify. Let alone as the Messiah himself.

Now, I would appreciate to share your comments about the above.

Ben

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Levite isn't it true, just for the interest of the one who asked the sacrifice question, that Maimonides argued Judaism had evolved beyond the need for sacrifices, and had always meant to, so that one day sacrifices would no longer be a part of Judaism?

 

[Levite]

Levite isn't it true, just for the interest of the one who asked the sacrifice question, that Maimonides argued Judaism had evolved beyond the need for sacrifices, and had always meant to, so that one day sacrifices would no longer be a part of Judaism?

While, personally, it seems to me that that's probably what Maimonides thought privately, he never actually said that: he would never have been able to get away with it.

What he indicates is that there must be a Third Temple built and sacrifices reinstituted, because it has been prophesized to be.

But he also says, in terms of the end of days-- which by his time, many were beginning to associate with the coming of the messiah-- is that at the end of days, after the resurrection of the dead (which in Rambam's time everyone took literally, whereas nearly no Jews take it literally today), there would be one single messianic generation that lived, had a Temple, fulfilled all the prophecies, and then when they all died off, everyone's physicality was dead forever, and we would all just exist as agglomerations of philosophic intelligibles, aphysically contemplating truth for the rest of eternity.

Which, to be frank, sounds even more unappealing to me than animal sacrifices.

 

[MathewJames]

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21. Now, we have extablished a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and the Suffering Servant is Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel (the Jewish People) is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Can the Suffering Servant be the Torah?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Ok another question, what exactly does Judaism teach about angels?

 

[Ben Masada]

Can the Suffering Servant be the Torah?

No, the Suffering Servant is the People of Israel. I like to interpret the Prophets metaphorically, but not at that extreme to say that the Suffering Servant could be the Torah.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ok another question, what exactly does Judaism teach about angels?

That angels are emanations. Incorporeal emanations. They are personified only in dreams or visions. (Num. 12:6)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

That angels are emanations. Incorporeal emanations. They are personified only in dreams or visions. (Num. 12:6)

If you would please, a more in-depth answer? Thanks

 

[Ben Masada]

And is Messiah ben Joseph whom I've heard some have viewed might be a suffering messiah?

WAS. Messiah ben Joseph was the Suffering Mesiah Isaiah talks about in chapter 53. He, metaphorically died when God rejected him forever by allowing Assyria to dismantle the Kingdom of the North and transferring the population to the East for good. (Psalm 78:67-69)

 

[Ben Masada]

If you would please, a more in-depth answer? Thanks

They do not exist in reality. They are abstract emotions, feelings, our preocupations, our aspirations, even someone with a message. Metaphorically, even death is an angel.
Remember Jacob in his way to Laban his uncle in Aran? He was so worried about his uncertain future that, when he got to Betel he looked for a place to sleep and had a dream of a giagantic ladder from the earth where he was sleeping to the Heavens. Then, as the text says, angells would go up and then down. If angels were as some people believe creatures in heaven with God, why in the dream of Jacob they would first go up and then down? Why not the other way around to make more sense? Because angels were the things that kept Jacob worried about his future in a strange land, Aram. Angels were Jacob's thoughts which would go up to God for an answer to his prayers. And then they would come down with
the answer that everything would be fine. Got it now?

 

[MathewJames]

No, the Suffering Servant is the People of Israel. I like to interpret the Prophets metaphorically, but not at that extreme to say that the Suffering Servant could be the Torah.

Yes, I like the Suffering Servant being the People of Israel. That to me is correct. It has to be people. I was just wondering if there was an idea that may have had that it could be the Torah. I consider the Prophets and the Torah somewhat the same and was wondering if there was a tie to the Suffering Servant.