Ask Zardoz Anything...

[Zardoz]

I guess part of what I'm wondering is exactly that: does your reading ever lead you to any indication of how the groupings are viewed. Will HaShem decide on the groups later, are they predefined, etc. When I think of "Nations" I realize that the entire EU can fall under one, but does it also follow that the migration to the US and Australia comprise the same? Or did they fall away from their original group, and form another group? I guess there isn't really any answer.

As I said, I really can't say about other Nations, but I do believe that language is more of a determining factor than geographic location.
For Jews, there is a teaching that Moshiach will have the prophetic gift to tell what tribe each person is from. That will of course be of tremendous use when determining which Kohenim are capable of offering sacrifices in any new Temple.

I was also wondering if you could mention what your personal beliefs about death and afterlife. If there's one thing that seems to hold importance across the board in religions (although not without exception) is death. A mention on your own but also other MJ views would be interesting.

Judaism does not place emphasis on reward in an afterlife. That does not mean we don't believe in one, but it means that what we do in this life should not be with reward in mind. What comes to mind is the analogy of Charity. In the ideal Charity, neither the donor nor the recipient know anything about the other. Totally anonymous. That way, the donor is just giving for the sake of compassion, with no reward or boasting, and the recipient is spared the shame of feeling obligated to the donor. It's the same with Heavenly reward. Do the right thing, for the right reasons, and that will take care of itself.

My personal belief is that there are four stages to the afterlife, at least of the Jew, can't say if it's universal.

First, is what we call Sheol, which is literally the grave. The soul stays near the body, lamenting it. This is the time when one feels shame for the wrongs one has done, as the soul remembers all. Not pleasant, and worse for some than for others obviously. This period has a deadline, and it's one year after death, but rarely do we expect this stage to take that long. Jews do not lay the grave's headstone until after a year has passed, out of respect for this period.

Second stage is a waiting stage. Waiting for the Final Judgment, that is. The souls of the Martyrs, for example, are said to wait under the Divine Throne. If the souls are aware of time passing isn't clear, but time likely has no meaning to them.

The third stage is of course the Final Judgment. There is no hell, the judgment is whether a soul should be allowed to continue to exist or perish. Not eternal punishment in a lake of fire, but rather something far worse... extermination for all time.

The fourth stage is physical resurrection for those judged worthy, in a new universe.

JMHO

 

[Zardoz]

zardoz, whats your opinion on jesus and mary magdalene getting married and having kids?

The likelihood that Yeshua was never married is slim. People normally got married young. Women also often died in childbirth, that was the most common cause of death for women of childbearing years. Not that men had it easy, they were just as likely to die in war. So Yeshua could well have been a widower.

I guess the real issue is if one thinks of Yeshua as divine, this is uncomfortable or even blasphemous. However, I don't and Yeshua's love life is really not a concern to me.

I read one of laurence gardeners books while tracing my anscestors. is the grail king Mashiach?
Thanks

No idea, not read any of those books.

 

[David69]

The likelihood that Yeshua was never married is slim. People normally got married young. Women also often died in childbirth, that was the most common cause of death for women of childbearing years. Not that men had it easy, they were just as likely to die in war. So Yeshua could well have been a widower.

I guess the real issue is if one thinks of Yeshua as divine, this is uncomfortable or even blasphemous. However, I don't and Yeshua's love life is really not a concern to me.

No idea, not read any of those books.

The book I sought out was bloodline of the holy grail!

yeshuas love life I wouldnt want to get into either but it was my guess that he would of had children and in that case there will be descendents of his living today.

I guess the real issue is if one thinks of Yeshua as divine, this is uncomfortable or even blasphemous. However, I don't and Yeshua's love life is really not a concern to me.

am not on about him being devine but I beleive in myself as a possible descendant of his! If yeshua didnt have kids then in my opinion would be an insult to God.

Anyways my family were mentioned in the book several times so I am happy with that. my family is a branch of stewarts (line that lady dianna came from)
modern family still holds titles of url of kilmarnock and ARRAN where Jesus is supposed to return!

The likelihood that Yeshua was never married is slim.

Thanks

 

[David69]

does 888 mean anything to you zardoz, regarding, mashiach, yeshua or God?

in english gematria jesus = 444 and lucifer is also 444 and they both add to 888 (lucifer jesus)
I thought that lucifer is the subconscious of man and that we are potentially one!
cheers
David.

 

[Zardoz]

does 888 mean anything to you zardoz, regarding, mashiach, yeshua or God?

in english gematria jesus = 444 and lucifer is also 444 and they both add to 888 (lucifer jesus)
I thought that lucifer is the subconscious of man and that we are potentially one!
cheers
David.

The only gematria that really matters to a Jew would be the Hebrew one, as the letters in Hebrew are also numbers. English letters are not naturally numbers as no one uses them that way. Yes, each English letter has number of their sequence in the alphabet (like D=4) but it's really not the 'value' of the letter. AFAIK, of course.

One can prove almost anything with gematria, if you try hard enough, even with Hebrew. So it's more of a curiosity really, and I don't put much stock in it.

 

[David69]

The only gematria that really matters to a Jew would be the Hebrew one, as the letters in Hebrew are also numbers. English letters are not naturally numbers as no one uses them that way. Yes, each English letter has number of their sequence in the alphabet (like D=4) but it's really not the 'value' of the letter. AFAIK, of course.

One can prove almost anything with gematria, if you try hard enough, even with Hebrew. So it's more of a curiosity really, and I don't put much stock in it.

maybe english numbers where mean to mean more to an english man
just wondered because jesus name in greek equates to 888 in greek gematria.
lucifer jesus, 888 and my name is 888 in english gematria, saying that, so is jewish messiah 888
Thanks

David.

 

[TalAbrams]

Do most MJ's use the CJB as translated by David Stern?

 

[Zardoz]

Do most MJ's use the CJB as translated by David Stern?

No, actually. MJ's who are Jewish usually have a more reliable Jewish Tanach. I have several, but the one with Rashi is what I use the most. What I do have is David Stern's 'Jewish New Testament'. That and 'A Rabbinic Commentary on the New Testament' by Samuel Tobias Lachs are the only NT's I own. Otherwise I use google, if I want to see multiple versions of an NT passage.

 

[Ilisrum]

Have you ever read Hebrew Matthew? If so, is it significantly different from the Greek and more suited for Jewish readership?

 

[punkdbass]

Im sure you've talked about this somewhere in this thread, but I'm really curious how you view Jesus. I feel like Jesus plays a crucial role in God's plans, especially in helping to bring the gentiles to the light of God.

The more I learn about him, the more I see him and Israel being symbolically related. I know the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel, but at the same time part of me thinks Jesus might be an example of an individual servant who symbolizes the collective suffering servant. I guess you could say I think he could be an individual who symbolizes the collective Israel, but Im still not really sure.

I do not accept Jesus as the messiah(for too many reasons..) but I really do want to read the NT someday and judge for myself if he is a Prophet of God. And even if he isn't a true Prophet, I just have a gut feeling that I will be able to find some of God's truth in his teachings.

Do you think Jesus is a Prophet?
Do you think he is God?
Do you think one must literally "accept" Jesus?

 

[Zardoz]

I'll answer in reverse order, I think that will be more accurate.

Do you think Jesus is a Prophet?

Prophecy ended with the destruction of the first Temple, some 400 years before Yeshua. So, no.

Do you think he is God?

No more than any other human being.

Do you think one must literally "accept" Jesus?

The man? No. His teachings? Yes.

The more I learn about him, the more I see him and Israel being symbolically related. I know the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is Israel, but at the same time part of me thinks Jesus might be an example of an individual servant who symbolizes the collective suffering servant. I guess you could say I think he could be an individual who symbolizes the collective Israel, but Im still not really sure.

You get it, Brother. On many posts here on RF I get more into this, but it boils down to a concept that is multifaceted. The Man, The Age, The People ... all are Messiah ben Yosef.

...I feel like Jesus plays a crucial role in God's plans, especially in helping to bring the gentiles to the light of God.

More specifically one group of gentiles, the descendants of Esau. Christianity is the redemption of Esau. You see, Jacob and Esau were destined to be a team, Esau destroying the idols physically and Jacob destroying the idols spiritually. Why two roles? Because a priest cannot be a warrior and a warrior cannot be a priest.

No one knows this truth more than I...

 

[punkdbass]

Thank you for your answers, I have a few more questions though.

Prophecy ended with the destruction of the first Temple, some 400 years before Yeshua. So, no

Yes I am aware prophecy ended before Jesus, but I thought Jews believed when the messiah comes prophecy will possibly resume to help explain his coming. And you consider Jesus to be part of the "Messiah" it sounds like, but you forsure don't consider Jesus(or NT writers) to be prophets of God then, who spoke God's word?

The man? No. His teachings? Yes.

Hmm this has always been my intuition/gut feeling about Jesus and the NT. I havent read the book but from what my Christian friends tell me, he teaches one how to love and "fulfill the law" in that sense that he teaches us how to inscribe the law into our hearts, or to "circumcize" our hearts.

Do you think you can elaborate on what you mean by saying we must accept his teachings? Here are my thoughts on the question: One must LOVE and find ways to inscribe the law into their hearts(a.k.a what Jesus essentially taught) in order to live a righteous life. However, one does not LITERALLY need to accept Jesus as a person in order to do this. For I truly believe as a Jew, for example, we can learn EVERYTHING we need to learn by studying Torah, because God's teachings in the Torah are perfect(Psalms 19:8).

However for a gentile to learn this things it might be somewhat difficult.. I mean, yes Torah teaches us everything we need, but most gentiles don't have that great of an understanding or appreciation of the Torah. So, now this is only something I've recentally started considering, but I think that Jesus plays a crucial part in Gods plans in the fact that he perfectly symbolizes Israel and everything that is taught in the Torah, and thus he is a perfect symbol that helps teach and bring the gentiles to the light of God.

So now here is the big issue I am struggling with.. If Jesus is indeed a crucial part of God's plans, and is a perfect symbol of Israel and the fulfillment of the law, then why don't we Jews accept him and study his teachings? Wouldnt that just make all of our work a WHOLE lot easier? Too be honest, I think it would, but I feel like since I am born Jewish I have certain responsibilities that other people might not necessarily have. And I think one of those responsibilities is to strictly follow Deuteronomy 13:1-6, and I feel like if I were to even slightly turn my focus away from God and towards Jesus, I would be in violation of this commandment. I mean yes, as you have seen with this post I have done a lot of speculation and thinking about the possibilities of Jesus being a part of God's plans, however I feel like I am at risk disobeying Deut. 13:1-6 if I were to follow Jesus.

I guess sense I know that the teachings of Torah are perfect(Psalm 19:8), I feel like the safest route for me is to simply put all of my devotion to God and Him alone, and study Torah since in it I can learn everything I need to know. Yes, it might be more difficult this way.. but idk now I'm rambling. so yea what are your thoughts on this issue? Thanks.

You get it, Brother. On many posts here on RF I get more into this, but it boils down to a concept that is multifaceted. The Man, The Age, The People ... all are Messiah ben Yosef.

MEssiah ben Yosef is the suffering servant right? I dont know if you read my thread in the Judasim DIR about Isaiah 53, but I feel like our thoughts on the suffering servant would be similar. I think the suffering servant is the righteous remnant of Israel + righteous gentiles, and I explain this in my thread. And I think Jesus is a perfect example of a suffering servant of God, for he has brought millions to the light of God, and afterall that is our mission as being the suffering servant.

More specifically one group of gentiles, the descendants of Esau. Christianity is the redemption of Esau. You see, Jacob and Esau were destined to be a team, Esau destroying the idols physically and Jacob destroying the idols spiritually. Why two roles? Because a priest cannot be a warrior and a warrior cannot be a priest

Yes 2 roles.. I feel like the messianic age is somewhat paradoxical in some manners for you have prophecies of peace and prophecies of the exact opposite yet both result in the culmination of the messianic age.

No one knows this truth more than I...

lol well thats why I felt the need to ask you these questions because I thought you might be able to relate to my thoughts in a kosher way of course, unlike Christians or Jews for Jesus when I talk to them about these kinds of thoughts that i have

 

[Zardoz]

Thank you for your answers, I have a few more questions though.

Glad to be of help!

Yes I am aware prophecy ended before Jesus, but I thought Jews believed when the messiah comes prophecy will possibly resume to help explain his coming. And you consider Jesus to be part of the "Messiah" it sounds like, but you forsure don't consider Jesus(or NT writers) to be prophets of God then, who spoke God's word?

I'm not at all sure that Messiah ben Yosef is or needs be a prophet. The age of Messiah ben Yosef is the age of Galut Edom. There is no prophecy in galut, except though righteous gentiles. Messiah ben David will be a prophet, no doubt, but I don't think Yeshua is Messiah ben David, and AFAIK never will be. Then again, one does not need to be a prophet to speak G-d's word, Daniel wasn't a prophet yet everyone honors his Book of Daniel.

Do you think you can elaborate on what you mean by saying we must accept his teachings? Here are my thoughts on the question: One must LOVE and find ways to inscribe the law into their hearts(a.k.a what Jesus essentially taught) in order to live a righteous life. However, one does not LITERALLY need to accept Jesus as a person in order to do this. For I truly believe as a Jew, for example, we can learn EVERYTHING we need to learn by studying Torah, because God's teachings in the Torah are perfect(Psalms 19:8).

If you look at the Sermon on the Mount, one thing comes through very clearly. Yeshua asks us, 'where is your heart?' The technical compliance with the Mitzvot are hoillow if the meaning of these Mitzvot isn't in our hearts. Not that the Mitzvot are in any way diminished, as he said, not the smallest part of the Torah is to be discarded. However, if these do not touch our heart, then what is the point?

Do you know Kabbalah? IF you do, then you should know what I mean when I say that the Pillar of Mildness is the goal which is only achieved by combining the Pillar of Mercy (Kav Yamin) with the Pillar of Severity (Kav Smol)

Or, as an NT writer said, 'faith without works is dead' to which I'd add the mirror of 'works without faith is dead'.

However for a gentile to learn this things it might be somewhat difficult.. I mean, yes Torah teaches us everything we need, but most gentiles don't have that great of an understanding or appreciation of the Torah.

The Torah is not for them, other paths are for them.

So now here is the big issue I am struggling with.. If Jesus is indeed a crucial part of God's plans, and is a perfect symbol of Israel and the fulfillment of the law, then why don't we Jews accept him and study his teachings?

Did the ten sons of Jacob recognize their brother Yosef? No, all they saw was the Viceroy of Egypt. Only later did he reveal himself to them, at the proper time. It is not yet time. The fact remains that Yeshua is the 'Viceroy of Egypt' and unlike Yosef when he died he was made into an idol, well... idol is a bit harsh... intermediary. Gentiles are allowed an intermediary, therefore Yeshua as part of a trinity is kosher for them... but not for us. So long as they need him... we can't have him.

The path to understanding Messiah ben Yosef if to understand Yosef, the 'Patriarch of Galut'. Paying particular attention to what happened after he died.

That's all I have time for now.

 

[Zardoz]

...
lol well thats why I felt the need to ask you these questions ...

That last sentence was referring to my personal experience of what happens when the role of warrior and priest is mixed.

 

[punkdbass]

Thanks a lot for your reply, I have just a few more comments and questions if thats alright.

I'm not at all sure that Messiah ben Yosef is or needs be a prophet. The age of Messiah ben Yosef is the age of Galut Edom. There is no prophecy in galut, except though righteous gentiles. Messiah ben David will be a prophet, no doubt, but I don't think Yeshua is Messiah ben David, and AFAIK never will be. Then again, one does not need to be a prophet to speak G-d's word, Daniel wasn't a prophet yet everyone honors his Book of Daniel.

Okay, thanks for clearing this up for me then.

If you look at the Sermon on the Mount, one thing comes through very clearly. Yeshua asks us, 'where is your heart?' The technical compliance with the Mitzvot are hoillow if the meaning of these Mitzvot isn't in our hearts. Not that the Mitzvot are in any way diminished, as he said, not the smallest part of the Torah is to be discarded. However, if these do not touch our heart, then what is the point?

Do you know Kabbalah? IF you do, then you should know what I mean when I say that the Pillar of Mildness is the goal which is only achieved by combining the Pillar of Mercy (Kav Yamin) with the Pillar of Severity (Kav Smol)

Or, as an NT writer said, 'faith without works is dead' to which I'd add the mirror of 'works without faith is dead'.

I do not know Kabbalah, but I hope to one day study it. But everything you said here makes sense to me, for I agree that the Mitzvot are hollow if the meaning of these Mitzvot is not in our hearts. So it sounds like Jesus taught this message and, correct me if I'm wrong, taught us how to put them in our hearts.

Hmm.. I feel like something is missing though. I mean, I'm sure many great Rabbis and Jews have preached this same message long before Jesus's time, so is this really all Jesus did? I mean, I guess he has given more people knowledge of this message than any other Jew perhaps, and there is definitely great significance in that I think. Maybe Jesus was a messenger from God whose purpose was to deliver the teachings of how to "circumcize our hearts" ?

The Torah is not for them, other paths are for them.

I know this is how reality is, but I wish this was different. I wish we Jews could bring universal knowledge of Torah to the world, thus helping to fulfill our mission of being a light to other nations (Isaiah). I've never understood why Judaism has been so numb when it comes to spreading God's word and His light to the whole world.. I mean, I think Christianity goes a bit overboard with their "mission," but I've never understood why we haven't put a greater effort into pursuing ours.. maybe I am being ignorant(I live in a very non-Jewish area), but I guess this is just how I see it.

I somewhat understand why antisemitism exists. I feel like so many Jews get consumed with pride that we are "God's chosen people" and they fail to realize their true mission of making the whole world Gods people. I could see why other nations/gentiles would get angry at this, not that it is justified, but I can see why. I just wish this was different, and that all Jews could humble themselves and pursue our true missions with love.. sorry I'm sidetracking now, but this is something that bothers me I guess.

Did the ten sons of Jacob recognize their brother Yosef? No, all they saw was the Viceroy of Egypt. Only later did he reveal himself to them, at the proper time. It is not yet time. The fact remains that Yeshua is the 'Viceroy of Egypt' and unlike Yosef when he died he was made into an idol, well... idol is a bit harsh... intermediary. Gentiles are allowed an intermediary, therefore Yeshua as part of a trinity is kosher for them... but not for us. So long as they need him... we can't have him.

The path to understanding Messiah ben Yosef if to understand Yosef, the 'Patriarch of Galut'. Paying particular attention to what happened after he died.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me, thanks.. I really like the connection you made here. For my initial intuition has always been that we Jews do not necessarily reject Jesus and his teachings, but rather we reject the Christian interpretation of Jesus and his teachings, for a lot of their ideologies are non-kosher for us.

So basically your conclusion is that one day the messiah(messiah ben David pressumably?) will come and reveal himself to us - as Joseph did to his brothers, and on that day the Truth will be revealed, and there will be no more confusion?

Hmm.. I just feel like something is missing. I mean, I agree that as long as the Christian interpretation of messiah ben Yosef exists, Judaism as a whole really cant accept him.. there would simply be too many problems and a mass of confusion in the world. So, and correct me if I'm wrong, but your implying that the messiah will come again(or messiah ben David will come essentially) and reveal himself to us as Joseph did to his brothers, and on that day the confusion will end and Truth shall be revealed? I guess i just feel like God's plan for salvation would be a bit simpler than this? Why the need for 2 steps that are thousands of years apart? Maybe you can give me some advice.

 

[Zardoz]

...Hmm.. I feel like something is missing though. I mean, I'm sure many great Rabbis and Jews have preached this same message long before Jesus's time, so is this really all Jesus did? I mean, I guess he has given more people knowledge of this message than any other Jew perhaps, and there is definitely great significance in that I think. Maybe Jesus was a messenger from God whose purpose was to deliver the teachings of how to "circumcize our hearts" ?

Yes, many before and since have had a similar message of Kevanna (intent) being the true fulfillment of the Law. Yeshua also taught of repentance, but that is not unique either. Of course, the most unique thing about Yeshua is what he came to be for Rome. The seed was planted, in preparation of the destruction of the Temple.

... I just wish this was different, and that all Jews could humble themselves and pursue our true missions with love.. sorry I'm sidetracking now, but this is something that bothers me I guess.

Yes, we are chosen. Chosen to be a nation of priests, to serve the other nations. If we will not be Messiah ben David, then we have to be Messiah ben Yosef. The choice, is ours.

So basically your conclusion is that one day the messiah(messiah ben David pressumably?) will come and reveal himself to us - as Joseph did to his brothers, and on that day the Truth will be revealed, and there will be no more confusion?

It's a bit more complex than just that, I'd say read this wiki:

Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this view, either Yeshua returns or another assumes his role, right before Messiah ben David arrives. It's not a pretty picture... for sure it's not clear, and there's a lot of ambiguity. I don't have all the answers.

 

[Shermana]

What do you think of the "Gospel of the Ebionites"?

 

[Zardoz]

Yes, I have heard of that, but isn't it just some isolated parts quoted elsewhere, in an anti-Ebionite church document, not a complete text?
It'd be great to find a geneza of an Ebionite community to get more information first hand, and not from their enemies. Still, it's important to keep in mind that the term 'Ebionite' applied to many separate groups who may or may not have had any communication or consensus, so there may have been significant variation of beliefs.

 

[Shermana]

I like what's found in the "Gospel of the Hebrews" at least in what's preserved in the "Church Father" writings, for instance, it gives a better context on the story of the Rich Man and the "Camel". It doesn't mean that all people with wealth are going to hell, it implies that the rich man had not actually obeyed the Law to pay for the poor and the orphans and widows and his general duty for his Israelite brothers.

What do you think of Shepherd of Hermas? I approve. I also like Acts of Peter. I think Gospel of the Ebionites may have been from an offshoot of an offshoot that turned Jesus into a Vegetarian when he really caught and ate fish.

 

[Zardoz]

Sorry for not making a reply sooner, but I didn't see this post.

I'm only vaguely aware of Acts of Peter and Shepherd of Hermas, but from what I remember of what little I read, I fail to see what relevance they are to Messianic Judaism. In fact, I remember that Irenaeus approved of them, and since he was the most vocal enemy to early Messianic Jews, anything he approved of I'd find suspicious.