Biblestudent_007
Active Member
Do messianic jews believe the Trinity?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Ask Zardoz Anything...
- Thread starter Zardoz
- Start date
Some do, especially the 'Hebrew Christians' and J4J types. The ones from Jewish backgrounds like myself... not so much. I don't, and I've met many others who don't, but as we're usually in the minority we keep our opinions to ourselves when around J4J types, just to avoid confrontation.
Biblestudent_007
Active Member
Why be a 'Messianic Jew' instead of a Christian?
Last edited:
StMichael777777
Member
Is Christianity another name for Judaism?
Yona
Frum Mastah Flex
To put it shortly, no.
Welcome to RF!
Who are you asking this question of, may I ask? It would help if you quoted.
Yona
Frum Mastah Flex
I am directing this question towards you, respectfully, mind you. I don't know a thing about Messianic 'Judaism' and I don't understand how you are 'Jews' or 'Jews for Jesus' and all this. I don't understand what seperates you from other Christians? I do apologize if these questions are confusing, again, I know nothing of this movement.
Well, you've come to the right place then, as I tell it like it is. :yes:
The first thing to know is that while Christians and Jews have denominations and branchs within their faith, Messianics are unlike any other faith group in that it has a split personality. The reason for this isn't hard to see, it's because there are people from both Christianity and Judaism who come with vastly different backgrounds and mindsets. I come from a Jewish background, but it's been quite an culture shock being mixed with Evangelicals, as you can imagine. Patient observation and close contact has taught me that among the Gentiles that come to this community, many are sincerely seeking G-d in a way that is both courageous and inspiring. They truly come for the sake of Heaven, and often undergo formal Conversion in various branches, yes even Orthodox. Then again, on the other hand, there are the missionaries. Like wolves in sheep clothing, their goal has nothing to do with becoming Jewish but to capture Jewish souls by any means possible, to make Christians out of Jews. These are the 'Jews' 4 Jesus types, a group that I find offensive personally. Their Judaism is insincere, a thin veneer they wear to blend in and spread their poison. Scratch that veneer, and you will find just under the surface an antisemite who promotes Replacement Theology. Their poison spreads throughout the Messianic community, even to congregations made up mostly of Jews who distance themselves from J4J. The missionaries are in all the leaderships and control all the pursestrings, a shocking revelation I don't know until I joined the 'inner circle' of a Temple's leadership and saw it firsthand. This caused me to leave the leadership role, and the congragation... almost twenty years ago now. I doubt much has changed.
Enough about them, what about the Jews in the movement?? I'd like to paint a rosy picture of learned Jews choosing a Messianic belief because of realizations of truth or for the sake of heaven... but unfortunately I can't. My wife, always more observant than me made this observation:
" It seems to me that the engine that drives the Jewish Messianic movement is ... intermarriage. Blended families seek blended religions "
A true assessment indeed. Other than ourselves, we never found another couple with both partners from Jewish backgrounds. Yes, sometimes both born Jewish, but one or both from totally secular and unobservant homes. More often than not, we would see an intermarried couple with young kids where this was a compromise faith. Hardly the best foundation for a religion, but understandable I guess. At least I can say that most are not victims of the J4J missionaries, in fact I know that very few Jews with even a 'twice a year-not been a member since bar mitzva' kind of Jewish background fall for their load of garbage.
Myself? Well, for me it's all about Messiah ben Yosef. Not about Messiah ben David or the path to G-d or the nature of G-d.
Paul... Trinitarian theology... Incarnationist theology... I reject it all. I await Messiah ben David like any other Jew, not claim his prophecies have already been fulfilled when plainly they have not. So, first and foremost... I am still a Jew.
The first thing to know is that while Christians and Jews have denominations and branchs within their faith, Messianics are unlike any other faith group in that it has a split personality. The reason for this isn't hard to see, it's because there are people from both Christianity and Judaism who come with vastly different backgrounds and mindsets. I come from a Jewish background, but it's been quite an culture shock being mixed with Evangelicals, as you can imagine. Patient observation and close contact has taught me that among the Gentiles that come to this community, many are sincerely seeking G-d in a way that is both courageous and inspiring. They truly come for the sake of Heaven, and often undergo formal Conversion in various branches, yes even Orthodox. Then again, on the other hand, there are the missionaries. Like wolves in sheep clothing, their goal has nothing to do with becoming Jewish but to capture Jewish souls by any means possible, to make Christians out of Jews. These are the 'Jews' 4 Jesus types, a group that I find offensive personally. Their Judaism is insincere, a thin veneer they wear to blend in and spread their poison. Scratch that veneer, and you will find just under the surface an antisemite who promotes Replacement Theology. Their poison spreads throughout the Messianic community, even to congregations made up mostly of Jews who distance themselves from J4J. The missionaries are in all the leaderships and control all the pursestrings, a shocking revelation I don't know until I joined the 'inner circle' of a Temple's leadership and saw it firsthand. This caused me to leave the leadership role, and the congragation... almost twenty years ago now. I doubt much has changed.
Enough about them, what about the Jews in the movement?? I'd like to paint a rosy picture of learned Jews choosing a Messianic belief because of realizations of truth or for the sake of heaven... but unfortunately I can't. My wife, always more observant than me made this observation:
" It seems to me that the engine that drives the Jewish Messianic movement is ... intermarriage. Blended families seek blended religions "
A true assessment indeed. Other than ourselves, we never found another couple with both partners from Jewish backgrounds. Yes, sometimes both born Jewish, but one or both from totally secular and unobservant homes. More often than not, we would see an intermarried couple with young kids where this was a compromise faith. Hardly the best foundation for a religion, but understandable I guess. At least I can say that most are not victims of the J4J missionaries, in fact I know that very few Jews with even a 'twice a year-not been a member since bar mitzva' kind of Jewish background fall for their load of garbage.
Myself? Well, for me it's all about Messiah ben Yosef. Not about Messiah ben David or the path to G-d or the nature of G-d.
Paul... Trinitarian theology... Incarnationist theology... I reject it all. I await Messiah ben David like any other Jew, not claim his prophecies have already been fulfilled when plainly they have not. So, first and foremost... I am still a Jew.
David69
Angel Of The North
Hi Zardoz, Ive known what this big code is for a couple of years now. it was reveiled to me in a trance by whom I beleive to be joseph. it is my birthright. I searched my numbers for two years but no luck. the other week I told the father that I was sick and tired of playing these games! if he doesnt give me a sign soon, I dont want to be the messiah. Im sick of suffering in vain.
I dont even want the job, I just wanted to be normal and I asked him to lift this dam curse!
So I give it another go! I searched my numbers and to my delight I found them...
first in the oldest book, a chinese book. the full meaning of the whole code to the chinese says
"doing Gods work!!!" (not the devils)
second... about a week later I tried again because I beleive there are more civilisations that must hold my code! So I came across it again. It was a blog I think by jewish christians. They claim that they have the identity of the jewish devil moshiach! they had 4 digits and say that I hold the other 2. there 4 digits were very accurate!!! they think I am the false christ!
question...
Do Messianic Jews beleive that the orthodox jews Moshiach to be the Devil or false Messiah???
In my beleifs ben Joseph and bed David are the same moshiach btw. If Jesus was ben Joseph and I am of Jesus then imo joseph and David are one.
I know I should be rambling in the real Messiah thread but I beleive that you are chosen for a reason thats why I talk with you.
Why is it that all the prophets before me have spoke to God and God has spoken to them, whereas he doesnt actually use words with me but visuals it seems important for me to see for myself the truth, why is this??? (why didnt he let other prophets see instead of telling them outright)
Thanks in advance
David
I dont even want the job, I just wanted to be normal and I asked him to lift this dam curse!
So I give it another go! I searched my numbers and to my delight I found them...
first in the oldest book, a chinese book. the full meaning of the whole code to the chinese says
"doing Gods work!!!" (not the devils)
second... about a week later I tried again because I beleive there are more civilisations that must hold my code! So I came across it again. It was a blog I think by jewish christians. They claim that they have the identity of the jewish devil moshiach! they had 4 digits and say that I hold the other 2. there 4 digits were very accurate!!! they think I am the false christ!
question...
Do Messianic Jews beleive that the orthodox jews Moshiach to be the Devil or false Messiah???
In my beleifs ben Joseph and bed David are the same moshiach btw. If Jesus was ben Joseph and I am of Jesus then imo joseph and David are one.
I know I should be rambling in the real Messiah thread but I beleive that you are chosen for a reason thats why I talk with you.
Why is it that all the prophets before me have spoke to God and God has spoken to them, whereas he doesnt actually use words with me but visuals it seems important for me to see for myself the truth, why is this??? (why didnt he let other prophets see instead of telling them outright)
Thanks in advance
David
Last edited:
Greetings David!
As to your questions of prophecy, I'm afraid I can't answer personally...
Again I can't answer for all MJ, but just give MHO.
Most MJ believe when Moshiach comes, all will be answered. Moshiach will be for all Jews, and we will be in harmony. What others think of him... may take longer. Some as so indoctrinated to expect an 'antichrist', that I think it may be quite a while indeed.
There's a belief... that Moshiach ben David is the same person as Moashiach ben Yosef. Some believe in a reincarnation; some believe in a man who descends from Heaven...
From the wiki:
I... don't know, to be honest. I only know that there will be two Messiahs, and G-d's plan will be revealed. As for the details...when Moshiach comes, all will be answered.
As to your questions of prophecy, I'm afraid I can't answer personally...
Again I can't answer for all MJ, but just give MHO.
Most MJ believe when Moshiach comes, all will be answered. Moshiach will be for all Jews, and we will be in harmony. What others think of him... may take longer. Some as so indoctrinated to expect an 'antichrist', that I think it may be quite a while indeed.
There's a belief... that Moshiach ben David is the same person as Moashiach ben Yosef. Some believe in a reincarnation; some believe in a man who descends from Heaven...
From the wiki:
I... don't know, to be honest. I only know that there will be two Messiahs, and G-d's plan will be revealed. As for the details...when Moshiach comes, all will be answered.
GabrielWithoutWings
Well-Known Member
GabrielWithoutWings
Well-Known Member
Um... thanks?
..........
You made a rhyme in your post?
Their Judaism is insincere,
a thin veneer
they wear
to blend in
and spread their poison.
Blah. No one ever gets my jokes.
David69
Angel Of The North
sorry Zardoz, I want nothing more than all jews to get along and become one. am a non religious person baptised a protistant but have nearly fell out with my own brother peter when he called jews and ah had a pop at me mam for it too. The general feeling all around is jews are hated and its starting to boil my urine. Theres a whole lot of missunderstanding in the world and ah cant bare brother against brother and neighbour against neighbour etc
if Moshiach David were just for the jews only (i'm sure you didnt mean that btw) then theres going to be big problems with that imho. I beleive that jews are chosen by the father so when the world decide for themselves to be close to God they will seek out the chosen Jews who will then guide them to the father, the creator of all that we know.
I send forth my Angel to testify to the nations...I am the ROOT and OFFSPRING of DAVID...WE ARE ONE!!! David knows with all his heart that Jesus/yeshua is a part of himself as is all of his anscestors! and they will go on through Davids children and his childrens chilren etc.
that wiki q:
To me when the moshiach realises the self, he knows alredy the Joseph is a part of himself and reconises him as one of his guides. and knows that the essence of himelf and his anscestors goes back to Abraham and to the father that sent him (David) So when David stands before the nations Joseph has been reserected by the father because he is part of David.
Zardoz I speak to you from my heart and do not intend to insult anybody
thanks for taking the time to speak with me and share your veiws
Any thoughts will be highly apreciated!!!
I am happy to tell you my code/birthright ( I reveiled to my orthodox jewish doctor) and to answer any questions you may have for me. pm if you prefur.
thanks
David.
I agree but also beleive that he is here for the whole world!!!
if Moshiach David were just for the jews only (i'm sure you didnt mean that btw) then theres going to be big problems with that imho. I beleive that jews are chosen by the father so when the world decide for themselves to be close to God they will seek out the chosen Jews who will then guide them to the father, the creator of all that we know.
I beleive that moshiach is born on earth a man and is among the people and learns of the world how he sees it himself. Now if he is indeed from a non religious community he will not recognise God or Jesus straight away not until many years of personal experience. at this stage he is anti-Christ/God. as he experiences Higher forms of communication the fear of this so called god is instilled in him and he thinks what is happening to him is of an evil nature, being punished by some Devil. But all of this is for a reason known only by God himself. A chain of events and some great drive from within leads the Moshiach to set out and learn about himself and his place in the world and to learn the sourse of visions and of manifestations and of such higher forms of communication that he has experienced all of his life on earth. He doesnt just apeer from the heavens and know everything but takes him a life time. One Day he recognises God as this great spirit within, that powerfull being that has allowed him to see FOR HIMSELF the truth. And he realises that this spirit is no Devil at all. he knows that this spirit has only been reaching out to him for recognition and acceptance all along. And from the day he realised this he embraced the father and begun to understand his place on this earth and was no longer anti-christ and he recognised 'some words' of Jesus and Jesus speaks to the world and states clearly:
I send forth my Angel to testify to the nations...I am the ROOT and OFFSPRING of DAVID...WE ARE ONE!!! David knows with all his heart that Jesus/yeshua is a part of himself as is all of his anscestors! and they will go on through Davids children and his childrens chilren etc.
that wiki q:
I understand this butdifferently!
To me when the moshiach realises the self, he knows alredy the Joseph is a part of himself and reconises him as one of his guides. and knows that the essence of himelf and his anscestors goes back to Abraham and to the father that sent him (David) So when David stands before the nations Joseph has been reserected by the father because he is part of David.
Zardoz I speak to you from my heart and do not intend to insult anybody
thanks for taking the time to speak with me and share your veiws
Any thoughts will be highly apreciated!!!
I am happy to tell you my code/birthright ( I reveiled to my orthodox jewish doctor) and to answer any questions you may have for me. pm if you prefur.
thanks
David.
Last edited:
Ah! Well, then thank you indeed! I didn't notice.
Of course for the whole world, David!Just that the Jews must be unified first, (no easy task that, btw) then to all Abrahamic peoples (our extended family tree, Ishmaelites and Edomites, who also have G-d's blessings) and then to all peoples everywhere.
Like a ring of ripples expanding from the stone dropped into the still pond, outward to all.
Hope you have made peace with your brother, and you know you can ask me anything. I may not have all the answers though....
David69
Angel Of The North
thanks man, actually brought tears to my eyes, it means a lot, thanks brother!
imho you are indeed helping me understand a lot and a whole lot more than you realise
Brother Peter is my bestest friend and I snapped at him in the defence of the Jews but I know the reason why yeshua brought him back to earth! He is a tough nut but as I say ,even the toughest nut will open to see the glorious light but for themselves. When he experiences my communication his pride makes him shrug it off as 'Just one of those things!' but I see through him and know that he is taking it all in! He is indeed learning his lessons!!! No matter what, we will always be close.
I got in touch with an old friend of mine after 20 years, 2 wks ago through face book. As we were chatting she mentioned a phsycic (spelling is terrible) that has been doing readings for her and over the years they became friends. this person does not charge for information and has been 100% accurate! Not long ago she told my friend that an old friend will contact you soon and his name is David! I told her that she has been seeing the angel, am I right! well my friend says yes and that her friend says an angel first came to see her and asked her if she would like to go to a higher level and she told him yes and accepted this offer but at the same time was frightened by the experience! My friend was taking aback. I told her that her friend knows me but not as I am now but she will recognise me. It was the angel that give her the gift of communication!
in several letters to my friend, her friend mentioned her angel of the north!!
One day my friend went to hostpital and died 3 times and since then she has a 'presence' in her home.
There are chosen people all around the world and from all walks of life and they all have there own purpose, there own part to play in doing the work of our Father if they realise it or not. Bringing the Jews together and ultimitely the union of the whole world is not hard at all because it is the will of the Father! and what will be must be so will be.
The chosen one will be recognised by the whole world because only this person has the code and understands the code and within every civilisation this code is there to be reveiled and this code is my birthright. The eagle landed in 69
People wont understand at first because this mortal is far from how they perceived him but this is for a good reason. But know this, he will not manipulate or say beleive beleive, beleive because that is manipulation. The people will see forthemselves rightiousness in the one they ask to lead them. all the forces in the world will recognise the truth because they know his birthright given to them by the Father.
Thanks Zardoz!
imho you are indeed helping me understand a lot and a whole lot more than you realise
Brother Peter is my bestest friend and I snapped at him in the defence of the Jews but I know the reason why yeshua brought him back to earth! He is a tough nut but as I say ,even the toughest nut will open to see the glorious light but for themselves. When he experiences my communication his pride makes him shrug it off as 'Just one of those things!' but I see through him and know that he is taking it all in! He is indeed learning his lessons!!! No matter what, we will always be close.
I got in touch with an old friend of mine after 20 years, 2 wks ago through face book. As we were chatting she mentioned a phsycic (spelling is terrible) that has been doing readings for her and over the years they became friends. this person does not charge for information and has been 100% accurate! Not long ago she told my friend that an old friend will contact you soon and his name is David! I told her that she has been seeing the angel, am I right! well my friend says yes and that her friend says an angel first came to see her and asked her if she would like to go to a higher level and she told him yes and accepted this offer but at the same time was frightened by the experience! My friend was taking aback. I told her that her friend knows me but not as I am now but she will recognise me. It was the angel that give her the gift of communication!
in several letters to my friend, her friend mentioned her angel of the north!!
One day my friend went to hostpital and died 3 times and since then she has a 'presence' in her home.
There are chosen people all around the world and from all walks of life and they all have there own purpose, there own part to play in doing the work of our Father if they realise it or not. Bringing the Jews together and ultimitely the union of the whole world is not hard at all because it is the will of the Father! and what will be must be so will be.
The chosen one will be recognised by the whole world because only this person has the code and understands the code and within every civilisation this code is there to be reveiled and this code is my birthright. The eagle landed in 69
People wont understand at first because this mortal is far from how they perceived him but this is for a good reason. But know this, he will not manipulate or say beleive beleive, beleive because that is manipulation. The people will see forthemselves rightiousness in the one they ask to lead them. all the forces in the world will recognise the truth because they know his birthright given to them by the Father.
Thanks Zardoz!
Last edited:
David69
Angel Of The North
ive been wondering about this for a while, I think this is where great animositys between the familys came about. I need to learn about this and Gods words on this. and I need to go furtha up the tree and injest as much as I can. Hopefully, Joseph will apeer at the tree/ above the well and sort it out for me but it would be better if I had some input first so that while I ponder wot I know in dreams I will get flashes by the threes and I will understand and learn more about it.
Next time I dive into the well, am going to that oasis again to seek the tablets. I know where the great lake is now!!! 100% sure.
if you can point me in the right direction Zardoz conscerning the family and further back, that would be much apreciated (al dig back through this thread incase you already have coz a have read about the brothers somewhere)
Thanks
David.
The three Peoples who descend from Abraham each have additional blessings (in addition to Abraham's blessings), and their own path to HaShem.
Ishmael was Abraham's first-born, found in Genesis 17:
"...And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation...."
Ishmael is the father of the Northern Arabic Peoples, and from him came the Prophet Muhammad to bring G-d's blessing to Ishmael's descendants.
Edom is the descendant of Esau, the first-born of Issac. Esau gives up his birthright to Jacob, and receives this blessing in Genesis 27:
"...And Isaac his father answered and said unto him: Behold, of the fat places of the earth shall be thy dwelling, and of the dew of heaven from above; And by thy sword shalt thou live, and thou shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt break loose, that thou shalt shake his yoke from off thy neck..."
Edom does indeed live by the sword, and establishes a great empire: Rome.
Christianity is indeed the yoke shaken off, and now Edom has it's own path to HaShem. Western civilization is the successor and inheritor of Rome, but sadly has shown the need to continue to live by the sword, and see the Jews as an enemy.
Israel (Jacob) is the younger son of Issac, and inherits the blessing of the priestly role.
Ishmael was Abraham's first-born, found in Genesis 17:
"...And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation...."
Ishmael is the father of the Northern Arabic Peoples, and from him came the Prophet Muhammad to bring G-d's blessing to Ishmael's descendants.
Edom is the descendant of Esau, the first-born of Issac. Esau gives up his birthright to Jacob, and receives this blessing in Genesis 27:
"...And Isaac his father answered and said unto him: Behold, of the fat places of the earth shall be thy dwelling, and of the dew of heaven from above; And by thy sword shalt thou live, and thou shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt break loose, that thou shalt shake his yoke from off thy neck..."
Edom does indeed live by the sword, and establishes a great empire: Rome.
Christianity is indeed the yoke shaken off, and now Edom has it's own path to HaShem. Western civilization is the successor and inheritor of Rome, but sadly has shown the need to continue to live by the sword, and see the Jews as an enemy.
Israel (Jacob) is the younger son of Issac, and inherits the blessing of the priestly role.
Biblestudent_007
Active Member
How many hairs do you have on your head?