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Ask Zardoz Anything...

David Ben Yosef

Messianic
I do not believe in any trinity doctrine, as your already well aware of. However, you did say in this thread that Yeshua is NOT the son of G-d. I disagree, and so do the Scriptures. He most certainly was who claimed to be, the son of G-d. Just exactly how that works, I'm not sure of, since "Great is the mystery of G-dliness" [1Tim 3:16]. The Brit Chadasha makes it clear that Yeshua was the "only unique son of G-d." This phrase can be found in numerous passages. What's your explanation of this phrase?
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
I do not believe in any trinity doctrine, as your already well aware of.
Yes, I know brother, but I usually go beyond the simple answer and elaborate for the sake of those who read this thread without our background. I meant no disrespect by this.
However, you did say in this thread that Yeshua is NOT the son of G-d. I disagree, and so do the Scriptures. He most certainly was who claimed to be, the son of G-d.
It all depends on what meaning one assigns to the term 'Son of G-d'. I do not believe in a trinity or any other interpretation of a divine status by the term 'Son of G-d' nor do I accept the term to mean a physical parentage, as I state in my previous post. When I suspect that the poster has these meanings in mind when they use the term 'Son of G-d' then I will deny that meaning. It's the meaning I dispute, not the title, as I do indeed think of Yeshua as the Son of G-d, but not in a Christian way.

I guess it all boils down to the meaning. I subscribe to a form of Adoptionism, if you don't know this theology term (again, not directed at you specifically but anyone reading this post) then google it and you'll see the wiki right away for a full explanation. What I call 'Christians' in these posts are Incarnationists, the other view of the term 'Son of G-d' which I deny as being true (for Jews) and always will.

The Brit Chadasha makes it clear that Yeshua was the "only unique son of G-d." This phrase can be found in numerous passages. What's your explanation of this phrase?
This phrase Son of G-d is a sign of a Messiah, but is not unique. Just look up at verse 7 of my quote of Psalms 2, David also called begotten Son of G-d. Complex, indeed, as you have also commented:
Just exactly how that works, I'm not sure of, since "Great is the mystery of G-dliness" [1Tim 3:16]
Shalom
 
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Jingkaide

Member
I thought that I was a Messianic Jew, but some of your answers to these questions make me doubt what religion I truly belong to... I was born into a Christian home and have Jewish roots from Hungary. My Grandfather was Jewish until his thirty's when he asked a Christian man who had come into his deli what it was that he was reading one afternoon when the man was on his lunch break. He came in often. The man told him about the New Testament over his bowl of Matzo ball soup. My grandfather was the first in his family to accept Jesus. Of him and his 2 brothers, his branch is Christian and the other 2 branches are Jewish. I figured that I claimed those roots honestly, but I'm not sure anymore. I've got some thinking to do.
 

David Ben Yosef

Messianic
I thought that I was a Messianic Jew, but some of your answers to these questions make me doubt what religion I truly belong to.

Zardoz, and myself, do not adhere to the doctrines of normative Messianic Judaism, so please don't base your religious affiliation according to what either of us has posted. You can find the doctrines of normative Judaism at the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, and the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.


Shalom
 

Jingkaide

Member
Zardoz, and myself, do not adhere to the doctrines of normative Messianic Judaism, so please don't base your religious affiliation according to what either of us has posted. You can find the doctrines of normative Judaism at the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, and the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.


Shalom

I'm not blaming you for anything at all, nor am I saying that this should not have happened at anytime. I just misunderstood something within myself and now I am curious about myself. As a human-being, I want to identify it because that is one of the core instincts of a human being.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
I'm not blaming you for anything at all, nor am I saying that this should not have happened at anytime. I just misunderstood something within myself and now I am curious about myself. As a human-being, I want to identify it because that is one of the core instincts of a human being.

Good luck on your search, wish you well bro. Remember the words of The Bard:

”This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.”

 

Evee

Member
Anyone mind if I resurrect this thread? (Is "resurrect" the wrong word here? :p)

I finally tracked down a bit of info about the Moshiach ben Yosef. If you believe that Jesus was him, does that mean you believe the arrival of Moshiach ben David to be imminent?
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Anyone mind if I resurrect this thread? (Is "resurrect" the wrong word here? :p)

I finally tracked down a bit of info about the Moshiach ben Yosef. If you believe that Jesus was him, does that mean you believe the arrival of Moshiach ben David to be imminent?

Shalom Evee, of course you're welcome!

Well, as I've said many times on RF, the way I look at Moshiach is three-fold, and this goes for both forms, the Davidic one and the ben Yosef.

1. The Individual who begins the Age

2. The Age

3. The People who live as the Moshiach, in their Age.

The Man... The People... The Age...

We Jews, we are the Moshiach ben Yosef, the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 and we live in this Age, the Age of Galut Edom.

We await the Davidic Moshiach, who will lead his People into a new Age and end all Galut, all Exile. Is the arrival of Moshiach ben David imminent? Simple answer... it's always been imminent, ever since this fourth, final, and worst Galut began.

This is my favorite story. Here's the link, but I'll post it in full.

Jewish messianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

R. Joshua b. Levi met Elijah standing by the entrance of R. Simeon b. Yohai's tomb. He asked him: 'Have I a portion in the world to come?' He replied, 'if this Master desires it.' R. Joshua b. Levi said, 'I saw two, but heard the voice of a third.' He then asked him, 'When will the Messiah come?' — 'Go and ask him himself,' was his reply. 'Where is he sitting?' — 'At the entrance.' And by what sign may I recognise him?' — 'He is sitting among the poor lepers: all of them untie [them] all at once, and rebandage them together, whereas he unties and rebandages each separately, [before treating the next], thinking, should I be wanted, [it being time for my appearance as the Messiah] I must not be delayed [through having to bandage a number of sores].' So he went to him and greeted him, saying, 'peace upon thee, Master and Teacher.' 'peace upon thee, O son of Levi,' he replied. 'When wilt thou come Master?' asked he, 'Today', was his answer. On his returning to Elijah, the latter enquired, 'What did he say to thee?' — 'peace Upon thee, O son of Levi,' he answered. Thereupon he [Elijah] observed, 'He thereby assured thee and thy father of [a portion in] the world to come.' 'He spoke falsely to me,' he rejoined, 'stating that he would come to-day, but has not.' He [Elijah] answered him, 'This is what he said to thee, To-day, if ye will listen to his voice.'

We are the Moshiach, Evee. Which one.... is entirely up to us.
 
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Abu Rashid

Active Member
It all depends on what meaning one assigns to the term 'Son of G-d'. I do not believe in a trinity or any other interpretation of a divine status by the term 'Son of G-d' nor do I accept the term to mean a physical parentage, as I state in my previous post. When I suspect that the poster has these meanings in mind when they use the term 'Son of G-d' then I will deny that meaning. It's the meaning I dispute, not the title, as I do indeed think of Yeshua as the Son of G-d, but not in a Christian way.

This is pretty similar to how I've always viewed the Messiah (pbuh) and reconciled the fact that he's called "Son of God" in the Christian tradition and the fact the term appears in the Tanakh too. In my opinion, the Jews sometimes used the term "son" (in the Tanakh) to mean beloved or chosen or special, not necessarily a literal son as we understand the term. This kind of term of endearment is very common in all of the Semitic languages, and in Arabic, we regularly call those loved ones near to us (who are younger than us) "ya bunay" or "ya ibni", meaning 'O my son'.

Then when Greeks and others began embracing the message, they misunderstood this term and thought that it actually meant physical son (since their previous religions had a concept of deities who bore offspring).

As this approaches idolatry, the term should not be used by sincere monotheists, and that's why it was forbidden by God in the last and final testament.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
...As this approaches idolatry, the term should not be used by sincere monotheists, and that's why it was forbidden by God in the last and final testament.

Good post. Yes, since the meaning can be misunderstood so it's best not to use the term and I don't use it myself except when others use it.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Zardoz, I find your views to be very close to the Islamic viewpoint on a lot of things. Actually prior to embracing Islam, Messianic Judaism was the "religion" I found most interesting. I think that there's very little between our beliefs, since Islam is essentially the religion which accepted the Messiah (pbuh) but didn't throw out the earlier parts of the religion which were given to the Children of Israel, and of course this message was conveyed to us by Muhammad (pbuh), the last and final messenger.
 

Tanuki

Taking a hiatus
the Immaculate Conception is real

Zardoz, the Immaculate conception refers to Mary being born without original sin, not to Jesus being born of a virgin. Hence why at the visions of Lourdes she (Mary) reportedly said 'Je suis l'immaculaee conception'

Just in case you didn't know :)
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Zardoz, the Immaculate conception refers to Mary being born without original sin, not to Jesus being born of a virgin...

'Original Sin' is purely a Christian concept not to be found in Judaism (Or Islam for that matter) so such a reason would be meaningless to the Jews of the period, and is a later Catholic doctrine. So that's not the reason why it's in the NT. As I'm sure I've already mentioned here, I will not discuss this in open forum, as I would have to be rather graphic in details.
 

Tanuki

Taking a hiatus
Sorry, I was pointing out the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary; in your earlier post you seemed to imply it referred to Jesus' virgin birth. Apologies, if wrong.

Peace,

Tanuki
 

Starlites Fate

New Member
As a born again christian, we believe that Jesus died for our sins..as the only way we will be justified to stand before the Father..thus in need of a messiah. What do the Jews need one for??? If God has handled all of this, since the beginning of time...why would he need to send a "messiah", a pinch hitter, in the bottom of the ninth..with two outs? Why?..to give him some batting practice? The messiah wouldn't have died for anyone's sins...and the Father has handled this all from the beginning. So..what is...the purpose??

The Jews have their feasts and such...and must atone for their sins...periodically. What happens to their sins..if they die before atonement. They don't sacrifice anymore.
And..how do the gentiles get to heaven...since we can't do the sacrificing that the Jews are supposed to be doing...and their is no messiah...to take away our sins?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
What are the key differences between Messianic Judaism and Protestantism?

Or, what may well amount to the same question, what is the difference between a Messianic Jew and a Jewish Christian?
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
What are the key differences between Messianic Judaism and Protestantism?

First thing to keep in mind is there are as many 'flavors' of Messianic Jew as there is any other Jew, we have our own spectrum from 'Reform' to 'Orthodox'. Not surprisingly, this is mostly due to the branch of origin for the M.J., as most tend to keep whatever degree of Torah observance they were raised with. Personally I'm from Traditional Sephardic background, so my level of mitzvot observance is the same as it was, I'm Shomer Shabbat but not quite Orthodox. My wife is from Sephardic Orthodox roots.

I have observed that the less Torah education the Jew who becomes Messianic has, the more Christian theology they tend to profess. Secular Jews, who have little or no Torah education (family not affiliated with a Temple, no Hebrew school, etc.) tend to become pretty much Protestant, except they are still in some ways culturally Jews.

My personal brand of Messianic beliefs share very little with Christians, except I use their accounts of Yeshua's teachings. (Sermon on the Mount and a few others) As a Jew, I'm not allowed to have an Intermediary like a Gentile can, so I never invoke Yeshua's name in prayer as Christians do. As a Jew, I know I must serve HaShem alone, so the 'trinity' theology is prohibited for me as well. As a Jew, I know that Yeshua did not fulfill the prophecies of the Davidic Messiah figure, I only ascribe to him the role of the Messiah ben Yosef, as portrayed in the 'Suffering Servant' passages of Isiah 53. As a Jew, I know Yeshua did not change or abrogate the Mitzvot, no he reinforced the Mitzvot but shed light only on our attitude and kevanna in observance.

In summary, the key differences are:

1. The Nature of G-d

Christians worship Yeshua as divine by the trinity theology, while Messianic Jews are just as Monotheistic as any other Jew, the Shema means the same to us as any other Jew.

2. The Nature of Messiah

Christians claim that Yeshua fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies, while Messianic Jews know not all are fulfilled and await the coming of the Davidic Messiah like any other Jew.

(Some MJ may think Yeshua may return to fulfill this role, but personally I doubt that.)

3. The Nature of Torah Mitzvot

Christians change and ignore Torah laws as they see fit, while Messianic Jews know all 613 are still in force, and observe them in whatever form their fellow Jews do.

Or, what may well amount to the same question, what is the difference between a Messianic Jew and a Jewish Christian?

To me, the term 'Jewish Christian' (and I have known some) is someone who turn their backs on their Judaism and the Jewish community and become Christians. They may be culturally 'Jewish' (locks n bagels jews) but their theology is 100% Christian.

Hope this helps, sorry for the wall o text. If you have not yet, check out Green Gaia's excellent overview thread in this DIR, for another perspective.

Shalom
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
As a born again christian, we believe that Jesus died for our sins..as the only way we will be justified to stand before the Father..thus in need of a messiah. What do the Jews need one for??? If God has handled all of this, since the beginning of time...why would he need to send a "messiah", a pinch hitter, in the bottom of the ninth..with two outs? Why?..to give him some batting practice? The messiah wouldn't have died for anyone's sins...and the Father has handled this all from the beginning. So..what is...the purpose??

The Jews have their feasts and such...and must atone for their sins...periodically. What happens to their sins..if they die before atonement. They don't sacrifice anymore.
And..how do the gentiles get to heaven...since we can't do the sacrificing that the Jews are supposed to be doing...and their is no messiah...to take away our sins?

First off, welcome to RF! Please check out the forum rules and post an 'introduction' over in the new members forum.

Ok, you must understand that the concept of Messiah is different for us.
Messiah does not 'die for sins' or 'save' us, not a 'divine' member of a 'trinity'.
The Messiah comes to bring peace to the world, when we are ready for him.

We now offer prayer instead of sacrifices, and while we do have a yearly day of atonement, that is not the only time we can seek forgiveness. 'Salvation' comes from G-d alone, when we repent.
 
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