Ask Zardoz Anything...

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hope this helps, sorry for the wall o text.

Thanks - I found it to be very articulate. And I'm left with the sense of a Jew who holds Yeshua in high esteem, much as I might hold Hillel or Rambam or the Besht in high esteem, but I assume that there is more and this 'more' is still unclear to me. So, for example, you write:

My personal brand of Messianic beliefs share very little with Christians, except I use their accounts of Yeshua's teachings. (Sermon on the Mount and a few others) [emphasis added - JS]

It's an interesting caveat. Why the parenthetical? And on what grounds do you conclude that the "Sermon on the Mount and a few others" are authentic and accurate while the remainder are less so?

 

[Zardoz]

Thanks - I found it to be very articulate. And I'm left with the sense of a Jew who holds Yeshua in high esteem, much as I might hold Hillel or Rambam or the Besht in high esteem, but I assume that there is more and this 'more' is still unclear to me. So, for example, you write:It's an interesting caveat. Why the parenthetical? And on what grounds do you conclude that the "Sermon on the Mount and a few others" are authentic and accurate while the remainder are less so?

I also hold all of them in high esteem, and others as well, like the Ramchal and of course Rashi but Yeshua is different than our sages as my attention to him is not only for his teachings but also for the role he has as a signpost, a pivotal character who charts the future of our people, much as his spiritual predecessor Yosef did. (who my Rebbi often called the Patriarch of Galut).

The 'gospels' are of course written long after the fact, most likely by gentiles, more specifically Romans. I believe the authors of the 'gospels' had before them the legends, stories, folklore, ... and more importantly to me... sayings... of Yeshua. Their goal was to combine all these into a narrative of what happened. My goal is to deconstruct their 'gospel' to find (as best as possible) the original sayings that they worked from. Sayings that, without an archaeological find such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, are lost to time except in this form. So I look at the context of the passages, and also to see if it rings true to Torah and Judaism.

A couple quick examples, yes I think the Sermon on the Mount is most likely based very closely to the oldest records of his teachings. Unlike say Matthew 8-5 where it seems simple propaganda where the goal is to make the Roman look good and the Jew not so good. So far I have only considered the book of Matthew, it seems the most 'Jewish' to me.

Sure, it's all value judgments on my part based on my own perspective, but it's all we can do.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thanks. That pretty much tells me what I wanted to know.

 

[David69]

Zardoz, If Yeshua bared fruit and and somewhere down the line apeered the Messiah, and this messiah done what was expected, would this not mean that Yeshua did fulfil prophecys through his future fruit, would this count? would the other Jews accept this?

Cheers.

 

[Zardoz]

Zardoz, If Yeshua bared fruit and and somewhere down the line apeered the Messiah, and this messiah done what was expected, would this not mean that Yeshua did fulfil prophecys through his future fruit, would this count? would the other Jews accept this?

Cheers.

No, other Jews would not accept this.

Look at it this way. We currently live in the Age of Messiah ben Yosef, and this Age is vital to set up the 'future fruit' of the next Age, Messiah ben David. When that Age arrives, the People of that Age will not look back on this Age and say that this was also Messiah ben David. Even though... without this Age it's impossible for Messiah ben David to come. The one leads to the next, but they are separate.

 

[David69]

No, other Jews would not accept this.

Look at it this way. We currently live in the Age of Messiah ben Yosef, and this Age is vital to set up the 'future fruit' of the next Age, Messiah ben David. When that Age arrives, the People of that Age will not look back on this Age and say that this was also Messiah ben David. Even though... without this Age it's impossible for Messiah ben David to come. The one leads to the next, but they are separate.

IMHO Yes for now. Going back these two branches were of one vine! And when traced, there they will be, as was set for the future; to be from the start!

ITs the realisation of the Messiah that they are only seperate before they are one!!!

It was Joseph the dreamer that I had seen about 3 yrs ago in my dreamland but didnt realise until you I think Zardoz pointed me in the right direction (as meant to He learnt me big lessons while I was looking into a reflection down the well!

Thers many things related to the Messiah and the work of God that brings together many 'as ones'! Like, The realisation of the different selves and the truth/light will bring it all together for the world to witness! Bringing it together as one.

Its true though that one does lead to the other. they are one but seperated by time but destined to meet (be aware) to move on to the full potential. But I feel that the Age is now David. Joseph was an insight from the past and is in the great genetic pool! (the well) With every realisation of the 'real you' will bring you a step closer to your full potential.

The world is in for a few suprises yet but it will be great lessons for humanity!

Even the toughest nut will crack open to allow in the glorious light! This also applys to all Jews too

Cheers

David69

 

[David69]

what about this:

I charge YOU, guide him back from the fearful land he is in with gentle care and please, do not judge, stigmatise or label him. I pray for your success and I pray for the Lord, our God, to help him.
amen.

Ive been trying to find out where this quote is from! any idea?

Thanks

David.

 

[Zardoz]

Yes, I saw this on the other thread you made, but I have no clue where it's from.

I seems modern (or at least a modern translation) and it doesn't seem particularly Jewish, but then again it's too short to be sure of that.

 

[David69]

Thanks. The person that posted this hasnt replyed to me. You know when God send you out to see for yourself the truth he is carefull as not to manipulate and it can be frustrating for me to get little tasters of my missing peices of puzzle. But I will recognise the peices as they can only fit into place if they are indeed the truth.

Its confusing to me that my questions carnt be answered and I thought that all answers are in the book so any questions that people dont recognise because they have perceived the real truth wrongly is lies! Thats a big shame and makes me sad.

Q:

If the jewish Messiah was accepted by the Jewish people and he said to them that through him, Jesus did indeed fulfill prophecys because he is the fruit of Jesus! "I am the ROOT of David!!!"
Would the Jewish People then beleive David to be ben Joseph? The deceiver!

Thanks

David.

 

[Zardoz]

...Q:

If the jewish Messiah was accepted by the Jewish people and he said to them that through him, Jesus did indeed fulfill prophecys because he is the fruit of Jesus! "I am the ROOT of David!!!"
Would the Jewish People then beleive David to be ben Joseph? The deceiver!

Not ignoring your question David, it's actually a complex issue that depends mostly on what kind of Messiah that Jews are expecting! Not every Jew expects two Messiahs, I'd make a guess that most Jews only expect a Davidic one, if they expect an actual individual at all!

Here's links on the issue:

Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who is the Moshiach ben Yosef?

Jewish Messiah, Moshiach/Mashiach - Moshiach Ben Yosef

Not at all clear-cut and simple.

 

[ATAT]

Finally found this thread.

May I ask if you have ever studied in a yeshiva (I mean, an Orthodox yeshiva)?

Secondly, have you ever heard / read the book, Jesus the Pharisee?

Do you live in a Messianic Jewish community, go to a shul of like minded persons and have you married someone who holds views like you do, are there schools for this?

I don't need to know where, who, etc, no identifying details, I'm just trying to get a tangible construct for your theological setting.

Do you think it would be a good idea for me to influence Orthodox Jews into becoming Messianic Jews holding your views? I'm not saying I would do that, but what if another person reading your writing is wondering, and has the opportunity, would you like to see more Orthodox Jews move to Messianic Judaism of your description, your kind of MJ?

What do you think of Saul / Paul of the NT?

What do you think of Jesus when he told the crowd that Sabbath serves man, in reply to the complaint that his starving followers were plucking grains on the Sabbath?

Did Jesus act correctly when he cleared the Temple courts and complained about the exchange rates?

Note, I think in the Sabbath grain case his followers may have been starving to death, hence permitted to save their lives, but the Temple courts thing seems problematic because the Bible itself requires giving more to the Temple when redeeming an item.

Thank you for your kind replies.

 

[xkatz]

Hey Zardoz,

I am not sure if anyone has asked you this but when you say Messianic Judaism is your religion, do mean that you are a practicioner of Judaism and/or it's customs who accepts Jesus as the messiah or are you a Christian who practices certain Jewish traditions/rites, or niether of those. If you are the second choice, are you trinitarian or non-trinitarian?

 

[Zardoz]

Hey Zardoz,

I am not sure if anyone has asked you this but when you say Messianic Judaism is your religion, do mean that you are a practicioner of Judaism and/or it's customs who accepts Jesus as the messiah or are you a Christian who practices certain Jewish traditions/rites, or niether of those. If you are the second choice, are you trinitarian or non-trinitarian?

I'm a Jew who practices Judaism and who's come to believe that Yeshua is Messiah ben Yosef

This does not make me a Christian, but I must study their scripture as that's the main source of his recorded teachings

Like many millions of my fellow Jews, I still await Messiah ben David

Shalom

 

[Zardoz]

Finally found this thread.

Welcome brother, I hope to answer most of your questions but I may have to finish some after Shabbat

May I ask if you have ever studied in a yeshiva (I mean, an Orthodox yeshiva)?

No, I did not, most of my Torah learning was done as a young adult at night after work,
My upbringing was a rather strange mix of secular Judaism and traditional Judaism, Yeshiva was not where my parents pushed me, rather to University

Do you live in a Messianic Jewish community, go to a shul of like minded persons and have you married someone who holds views like you do, are there schools for this?

I used to, in fact I was on the board of directors of a rather large right-leaning Messianic Shul in a major metropolitan area
Inevitably, my views brought me into conflict with Christian-based members who were rather wealthy and influential, and I had to leave
I was blessed to marry a like-minded Jew from Egypt who has, like me, a view of Yeshua that is not in conflict with her Judaism
Her views are slightly different than mine; I know of no Messianic Yeshiva

Do you think it would be a good idea for me to influence Orthodox Jews into becoming Messianic Jews holding your views? I'm not saying I would do that, but what if another person reading your writing is wondering, and has the opportunity, would you like to see more Orthodox Jews move to Messianic Judaism of your description, your kind of MJ?

No, as a general rule it would not, and I've never done so here, though I would encourage all Jews to await the Messiah

If a Jew is expecting only the coming of Messiah ben David (the most common view, IMO) then they don't need my views

If a Jew is expecting Messiah ben Yosef and then Messiah ben David, I would hope they would at least consider my views

What do you think of Saul / Paul of the NT?

I don't think very highly of him, and that's an understatement

Considering that he never even met Yeshua, his opinion is only of historical value of the divisions in the early followers

Shabbat Shalom

 

[ATAT]

Thank you for your reply.

We have some Messianic houses of worship here, and I've always avoided them like the plague, but after reading your perspective, I may have been premature in my judgment.

My Orthodox shul has nothing but the nicest people on earth, I'm always greeted with warmth and love and people go out of their way to make me feel part of the family.

However, due strictly to my own inner failings, I never have felt good enough to be with them.

I have always found it difficult to go into what should be my most favorite place to be. I can't understand it, but I must admit that the only reason I ever went there in the first place was becaused I believed in the theology, not because I enjoyed it. One should enjoy it, but I just don't, and that's my fault somehow, I know it.

I think it may have to do with the fact that I think that people who grow up Jewish, generally are simply better persons, better disciplined, have better jobs (due to their hard study and work) than myself. I *feel* like everyone there is a doctor or lawyer or nuclear theorist, and the only thing I'm good at is enjoying Talmud (that's the one thing I have going for me, I take to the Talmud like a fish to water, at least on some level I do, I'm not an expert or anything, but I'm not the worst one in the class. put another way, I not only like study of gemora, I love it like chocolate ice cream).

I think if I had to have a tooth pulled or sit through high holiday services, I'd volunteer to have two teeth pulled, just to be sure. Again, I'm treated like royalty, everybody loves me, no question, I just get this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach like stage frieght and terrible embarrassment. There's even a rabbi who will sit next to me, trying to make me feel better, which it does, but I only last a few minutes before I make a hasty retreat. I havn't had an aliyah in years, not even on Simchas Torah when I could sneak one in without too many people staring at me. I have zero desire for that and am very good at hiding.

Even when I was in a major yeshiva in New York, I just couldn't bring myself to go into Rosh Hashana services to hear shofar. That's stupid, I know, it doesn't make any sense. I found a shofar, tried to blow it, but knew very well I didn't have the skills or the m'sorah to know how to do it right. What was really funny (funny ironic, not funny ha ha) was one year I saw this yingelacht walking with a shofar, all by his lonesome. I was too embarrased to ask him to motzai me, but who knows? maybe it wouldn't be too late, I could chap a rine (sp?) and catch the mitzvah at the last possible moment of the most lenient ****ah.

So, to tag along, I asked what he was doing. He said the Rosh Yeshiva told him to blow it from the roof after the day was over.

Well, we got to the outside, and, if there wasn't a thousand clear stars, all sizes, then I've never seen stars. Oh well, I listened to him blow, obviously well past the z'man, anouncing yet another year where I was over another d'orrissa. Wonderful.

I think your encouragement gives me another option, I don't feel second class to anyone in the Messianic club (no offense, I just don't see them as the same cup of tea). And as for it being avoda zora, as you pointed out, that wouldn't be my machshava (I wouldn't have that in mind) at all.

I don't have any interest in them or the people, but maybe that's just what I need.

Later,

I looked at the web page of a place nearby, seems like a nice place. They even have a school the kids, perhaps they'll fit in better there, too.

Later,

I asked my wife if she wanted to go with me to check it out, she didn't like the idea, but agreed maybe we won't have the same problems we have had in the past. There have been some issues, so, maybe a chance for a fresh start. I've heard they can be pretty cheerful at these places, dancing and what not. Not my cup of tea, but, if you're comfortable, maybe I won't feel so second class (self-imposed).

Later,
I noticed their Shabbos morning services don't start until very late, past the zmanim. The good thing about that is I could daven before I go and then just observe.

 

[David69]

So yeshua is ben joseph! Music to my ears!
I'll read those links now. Thanks Zardoz.

One question:

So the christians beleive that Jesus will return in the clouds and destroy man on earth and only take his beleivers with him to heaven or where ever. I was mad when I learned this. Surely Jesus the christ, saviour of man isnt the anti-christ because in my eyes he is portraid as the devil.
I feel that Jesus is part of me. Maybe you are right that Jesus is ben yoseph! Man, you are chosen, Zardoz!

Whats your beleifs/veiws on the christians second coming of christ?

To me, its all upside down as pointed out to me at the well and the tree by who I now know to be Joseph the dreamer!

Thanks for all your help.

David

 

[Zardoz]

Thank you for your reply.

We have some Messianic houses of worship here, and I've always avoided them like the plague, but after reading your perspective, I may have been premature in my judgment.

Well, each congregation is different, and some I would also avoid like the plague

You have to check them out carefully, some have a web page and that can give a clue what they're about

A good litmus test is what they think of J4J, if they support them then run,,, fast!

Otherwise, you'll probably see a good mix of different Jews and often times non-Jewish spouses, but that's not really a bad thing, they're often very committed to Judaism

As my wife likes to say: "intermarriage is the engine that drives most couples to MJ temples; a blended family naturally seeks out a blended religion"

Chances are pretty good in any 'non-J4J' group there'll be at least one Jew like me

I have always found it difficult to go into what should be my most favorite place to be. I can't understand it, but I must admit that the only reason I ever went there in the first place was becaused I believed in the theology, not because I enjoyed it. One should enjoy it, but I just don't, and that's my fault somehow, I know it.

It's quite a culture shock I'm sure, you shouldn't feel odd in this, take any Reform Jew and put him in in your place and he'd say the same thing
Even I feel lacking around frum Jews as I am not at their level, I freely admit this, though my home is very frum once I am in shul I feel very inadequate, and never take my aliya but try to blend into the background

The only Temple within walking distance to me now (rural area) is Reform, and I'm a member there now and on their board of course, and I don't feel the same unease when I go there, but my wife can't stand the place

I could say more on this, but would prefer to do so by PM

I asked my wife if she wanted to go with me to check it out, she didn't like the idea, but agreed maybe we won't have the same problems we have had in the past. There have been some issues, so, maybe a chance for a fresh start. I've heard they can be pretty cheerful at these places, dancing and what not. Not my cup of tea, but, if you're comfortable, maybe I won't feel so second class (self-imposed).

My wife keeps hinting to me to go back to MJ shuls, but so far I haven't, as they have their own problems when Christians are in charge; I don't feel 2nd class around Reform but I know my wife is not happy there

I noticed their Shabbos morning services don't start until very late, past the zmanim. The good thing about that is I could daven before I go and then just observe.

Let me know how it went

 

[Zardoz]

So yeshua is ben joseph! Music to my ears!
I'll read those links now. Thanks Zardoz.

Let me know if you have any questions, David

One question:

,,,

Whats your beleifs/veiws on the christians second coming of christ?

I worry about that, actually
When the Messiah ben David comes, and he does not follow their plan, how will they react to him? Will they call him antichrist and make war with him? I hope not but feel that is what will happen, at least with some of them, no matter what good he does

 

[Biblestudent_007]

What are frubals?

 

[Zardoz]

Frubals are a feedback system for posts. Unfortunately, they are currently neutered because some people abused the system to make ridiculous frubal counts by use of 'mutual admiration societies' . JMHO.