Ask Zardoz Anything...

[punkdbass]

I have a few quick questions about Ebonite Judaism.

1. Do Ebonites regard Jesus as the messiah or simply a prophet?
2. What parts of the Christian Bible do Ebonites regard as scripture? I assume they dont consider John and possibly most of Pauls work scripture.

I'm really interested in learning more about my 2nd question. Because obviously Ebonites consider Jesus a part of God's plan, so I'm curious to see which parts of the NT(which is obviously edited by the Church) they accept as genuine teachings of Jesus. All we have left of Jesus and his teachings is the Christian Bible, which obviously is edited by the Church like I said. So I wonder what parts they determine genuine, and how they go about determining that.

 

[Zardoz]

Thank you, yes It is very interesting because western esoterics are using Qabalah as a tool in a form of tree of life, more like a classification tool (hope this is not offending your faith). Do you also use graphical representation of Qabalah through tree of life?

Not offended at all, my faith is open to all. While only Jews are obligated to the commandments of the faith, the knowledge is for everyone.

Yes, I use the diagram of the Tree of Life with it's Sephirot to contemplate creation.

Thank you Zardoz for your fantastic advice all. Makes perfect sense, wonderful!

I will check out that book, also. Do you have any recommendations for study online- Torah & Kabbalah?

It is so nice to have people understand what I am talking about.

Thank you, but I can't claim the advice as my own, not really. My Rebbi ZT''L is the source of many of my answers.

Gershom Sholem wrote many books on Kabbalah and mostly from a academic viewpoint. Deep reads, for sure. Unfortunately nowadays Kabbalah is a fad and much of what you find on the internet is worthless drivel. I won't pretend to be knowledgeable enough to advise on Kabbalah study.

 

[Zardoz]

I have a few quick questions about Ebonite Judaism.

I will do my best to answer, but my answers may not reflect all modern Ebionites, who themselves may not reflect the ancient Ebionites who were wiped out by Rome by the fourth century CE. Yes, Ebioniteism is a re-constructed faith/belief group.

1. Do Ebonites regard Jesus as the messiah or simply a prophet?

Messiah, but keep in mind that most Ebionites (like me) believe in two Messianic figures who represent two Messianic ages. Yeshua is Messiah ben Yosef; the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. We mostly now await Messiah ben David like any other Jew.

2. What parts of the Christian Bible do Ebonites regard as scripture? I assume they dont consider John and possibly most of Pauls work scripture.

I certainly don't accept John or Paul, that's for sure.

As to the rest... Matthew and Luke are what I read most. But with care, considering that there's questionable provenance from a Jewish perspective.

This is how it was explained to me.

Contained in what the Christians call gospels are the teachings of Yeshua. These teachings were most likely originally in a teaching book attributed to Mathew, who we know could read and write. The original format would be similar to Pirkei Avot. These teachings were injected into the gospels to match the gospel format by the editors of those gospels. It's our job as Ebionites to extract these jems from the alien storytelling format of the gentile gospels.

Until and unless archeology unearths a geneza of an Ebionite community, it's all we can do.

 

[punkdbass]

Messiah, but keep in mind that most Ebionites (like me) believe in two Messianic figures who represent two Messianic ages. Yeshua is Messiah ben Yosef; the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. We mostly now await Messiah ben David like any other Jew.

Interesting, I did not know that most Ebonites believe in a similar messiah concept as you do.

As to the rest... Matthew and Luke are what I read most. But with care, considering that there's questionable provenance from a Jewish perspective.

This is how it was explained to me.

Contained in what the Christians call gospels are the teachings of Yeshua. These teachings were most likely originally in a teaching book attributed to Mathew, who we know could read and write. The original format would be similar to Pirkei Avot. These teachings were injected into the gospels to match the gospel format by the editors of those gospels. It's our job as Ebionites to extract these jems from the alien storytelling format of the gentile gospels.

Until and unless archeology unearths a geneza of an Ebionite community, it's all we can do.

Interesting.

Thanks for your reply, I think the Ebonites have some very interesting beliefs, but sadly I kind of doubt they will ever become a thriving religion/community. I just have 2 more quick questions:

1. What are your thoughts on the gospel of Mark? I'm pretty sure Mark is generally believed to be the first gospel
2. Is there even such a thing as Ebonite churches? I have never heard of them but I am just wondering.

 

[Zardoz]

Interesting, I did not know that most Ebonites believe in a similar messiah concept as you do.

Ya, well, IMHO of course. You know the story... Two Jews - Three Opinions!

I'm pretty sure that most if not all Ebionites would agree with the 'Messiah ben Yosef / Messiah ben David' view. Some will have the opinion that Yeshua was the first role and will also be the second. To me, it's not so important whether or not Yeshua is one or both. What's more important is understanding how these roles play out in history and in the path of our people.

Interesting.

Thanks for your reply, I think the Ebonites have some very interesting beliefs, but sadly I kind of doubt they will ever become a thriving religion/community. I just have 2 more quick questions:

1. What are your thoughts on the gospel of Mark? I'm pretty sure Mark is generally believed to be the first gospel

Mark is indeed the first gospel and set the mold for the gospel format. Unfortunately. The gospel format focuses on the man and his story. Which is not as important as his teachings. As I said previously, his teachings were injected into the story, and now we try to reverse that and extract the teachings for a pure view of what he actually taught.

2. Is there even such a thing as Ebonite churches? I have never heard of them but I am just wondering.

Ebionites are a minority within a minority within a minority. There will probably never be enough in one place to form any physical community. And they would never call themselves a 'church'... ever. The best we can hope for is a virtual/internet community. That may be as valuable as a physical community maybe even more so... seeds of change, very necessary change, spread across the Messianic Judaism community. So I hope...

 

[roberto]

Moshiach ben Joseph
Moshiach ben David
Their functions are like the two sides of a coin
But time and space separates the two "job descriptions"
It as like hunting a Deer, now you see it then it hides itself and then you see it again.
Ps. Im a sojourner to 10 Israel [a heathen from the nations who has joined the Fathers Nation, like Ruth did.]

 

[punkdbass]

Ya, well, IMHO of course. You know the story... Two Jews - Three Opinions!

I'm pretty sure that most if not all Ebionites would agree with the 'Messiah ben Yosef / Messiah ben David' view. Some will have the opinion that Yeshua was the first role and will also be the second. To me, it's not so important whether or not Yeshua is one or both. What's more important is understanding how these roles play out in history and in the path of our people.

Mark is indeed the first gospel and set the mold for the gospel format. Unfortunately. The gospel format focuses on the man and his story. Which is not as important as his teachings. As I said previously, his teachings were injected into the story, and now we try to reverse that and extract the teachings for a pure view of what he actually taught.
Ebionites are a minority within a minority within a minority. There will probably never be enough in one place to form any physical community. And they would never call themselves a 'church'... ever. The best we can hope for is a virtual/internet community. That may be as valuable as a physical community maybe even more so... seeds of change, very necessary change, spread across the Messianic Judaism community. So I hope...

Interesting, thanks for your posts! One last quick question. I'm reading through the Christian Bible right now, and I was wondering if you could recommend your favorite sections/books of it that are most in line with Jewish thought? So far my favorites are Matthew and James. I see you recommended Luke as well.. any others? Thanks

 

[schnepp51]

I am new here and maybe in wrong place. I am a follower of Yeshua the wholely human man as Messiah (not God or YHVH in the flesh). I worship the holy One, Baruch Hu. I am a gentile with no need to try and be a Jew. YHVH is the Elohim of the Jew and the gentile and I believe there is a place and purpose for both. Sixty years ago I was born to a Catholic family then moved on to the Baptist then non-denominational charismatic then onto a Hebrew Roots group but now I attend a somewhat unusual Jewish synagogue. It is not overly rabbinic meaning Written Torah far out weighs oral torah and I am welcome even with my belief that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. He just isn't done yet!
There are very few other non trinitarian Shabbos keepers around here, if any! I try to follow the Torah instructions for a Gentile grafted into the commonwealth of Israel which I believe goes far beyond the Nohide Laws. I do not believe any of the latter writings (NT),(including Paul/Shaul) contradict Torah or declares Yeshua to be anything but what he is, Messiah.

You seen to be looking for Jews. What would be my place on your form?

 

[SimoneQuinn]

Hello and welcome, Schnepp.

 

[Zardoz]

Interesting, thanks for your posts! One last quick question. I'm reading through the Christian Bible right now, and I was wondering if you could recommend your favorite sections/books of it that are most in line with Jewish thought? So far my favorites are Matthew and James. I see you recommended Luke as well.. any others? Thanks

Matthew and Luke are where I look for the teachings of Yeshua. Matthew's Sermon on the Mount touches my heart deeply.

Tell me, what do you think of what's commonly called 'The Lord's Prayer' in Matthew 6:9

Luke I use much less than Matthew, as Luke was Paul's friend I believe, and he also wrote Acts, which reveals much about the early power struggles if you read carefully.

I forgot about James, as I usually ignore the epistles as most are by Paul. James is good, but as you probably can tell I can't stand Paul or John.

The so-called book of revelations is absolute nonsense, pure garbage.

 

[Zardoz]

I am new here and maybe in wrong place. I am a follower of Yeshua the wholely human man as Messiah (not God or YHVH in the flesh). I worship the holy One, Baruch Hu. I am a gentile with no need to try and be a Jew. YHVH is the Elohim of the Jew and the gentile and I believe there is a place and purpose for both. Sixty years ago I was born to a Catholic family then moved on to the Baptist then non-denominational charismatic then onto a Hebrew Roots group but now I attend a somewhat unusual Jewish synagogue. It is not overly rabbinic meaning Written Torah far out weighs oral torah and I am welcome even with my belief that Yeshua is the promised Messiah. He just isn't done yet!
There are very few other non trinitarian Shabbos keepers around here, if any! I try to follow the Torah instructions for a Gentile grafted into the commonwealth of Israel which I believe goes far beyond the Nohide Laws. I do not believe any of the latter writings (NT),(including Paul/Shaul) contradict Torah or declares Yeshua to be anything but what he is, Messiah.

You seen to be looking for Jews. What would be my place on your form?

Welcome to RF forums! Shalom!

As you can see, the Messianic Judaism sub-forum is off by itself in the Abrahamic D.I.R. forums. That's so those who come from Jewish backgrounds and Gentile backgrounds are both free to call it home. Read the Overview sticky in this forum for background. Personally, I'm afraid I am a highly anti-Paulian MJ, but that's JMHO and won't mean you can't post here. Be aware however there is no debate allowed in D.I.R. forums, FYI.

..YHVH is the Elohim of the Jew and the gentile and I believe there is a place and purpose for both...

QFT

In other words, oh yes indeed. Welcome, fellow 60-ish senior.

 

[Shermana]

Matthew and Luke are where I look for the teachings of Yeshua. Matthew's Sermon on the Mount touches my heart deeply.

Tell me, what do you think of what's commonly called 'The Lord's Prayer' in Matthew 6:9

Luke I use much less than Matthew, as Luke was Paul's friend I believe, and he also wrote Acts, which reveals much about the early power struggles if you read carefully.

I forgot about James, as I usually ignore the epistles as most are by Paul. James is good, but as you probably can tell I can't stand Paul or John.

The so-called book of revelations is absolute nonsense, pure garbage.

Zardoz, one day I'd like to discuss Revelation and John in context of how I read them (we definitely agree on Paul though), are you aware that Revelation is often said to be written by a Jewish Christian and seems to be anti-Paul?

 

[punkdbass]

Matthew and Luke are where I look for the teachings of Yeshua. Matthew's Sermon on the Mount touches my heart deeply.

Tell me, what do you think of what's commonly called 'The Lord's Prayer' in Matthew 6:9

Luke I use much less than Matthew, as Luke was Paul's friend I believe, and he also wrote Acts, which reveals much about the early power struggles if you read carefully.

I forgot about James, as I usually ignore the epistles as most are by Paul. James is good, but as you probably can tell I can't stand Paul or John.

The so-called book of revelations is absolute nonsense, pure garbage.

Yeah I look forward to reading through Luke soon, I'm reading Mark right now.

I love the 'The Lord's Prayer' in Matthew 6:9, aren't there some similar prayers found in the Talmud? I also really love the sermon on the Mount found in Matthew. Matthew is definitely my favorite part of the NT so far, because as you can tell it is more-so written for a Jewish audience in mind than most of the other books, so it is a lot easier for me to understand and relate to.

And yeah I am not a big fan of John or Paul ether. This is actually my second time reading through the gospels(Im going at a pretty slow pace since I take notes), I remember reading through Matthew, Mark and Luke before and then upon reading the first few pages of John I was immediately turned off. There is so much content in John that is not in the other gospels, and just the general focus of his gospel seems so much different than the others. The amount of times John references "eternal life" compared to the other gospels is ridiculously more(you can see what I mean here).. clearly there is a different focus and agenda in his gospel. There is almost no doubt in my mind that John was 100% written by the Church, for its own purposes.

 

[Zardoz]

There would not be a church or christianity as we know it without Paul and John.

Would that be a good thing?

From a Jew's perspective, yes. However, I've always held that this was a path that G-d created for Edom, and it somehow resonates in the souls of the children of Edom, bringing them closer to HaShem to fulfill his blessing to Avraham. All of the seed of Avraham are blessed, if in different ways. That other defendants of Avraham have different paths then mine... I'm OK with that.

 

[Shermana]

Yeah I look forward to reading through Luke soon, I'm reading Mark right now.

I love the 'The Lord's Prayer' in Matthew 6:9, aren't there some similar prayers found in the Talmud? I also really love the sermon on the Mount found in Matthew. Matthew is definitely my favorite part of the NT so far, because as you can tell it is more-so written for a Jewish audience in mind than most of the other books, so it is a lot easier for me to understand and relate to.

And yeah I am not a big fan of John or Paul ether. This is actually my second time reading through the gospels(Im going at a pretty slow pace since I take notes), I remember reading through Matthew, Mark and Luke before and then upon reading the first few pages of John I was immediately turned off. There is so much content in John that is not in the other gospels, and just the general focus of his gospel seems so much different than the others. The amount of times John references "eternal life" compared to the other gospels is ridiculously more(you can see what I mean here).. clearly there is a different focus and agenda in his gospel. There is almost no doubt in my mind that John was 100% written by the Church, for its own purposes.

What you may find Ironic is that "John" was very possibly originally written by a man called "Cerinthus", there's a bit of a history to him, he was a Jewish Christian who was labeled a "Gnostic" by Iraneus, but he wasn't anything like the typical Sethian "Gnostics". This is what the "Alogi" believed, and Caius believed "John's revelation" was by Cerinthus.

Zardoz, have you read about Cerinthus before? It's very interesting.

 

[Zardoz]

The 'gospel' of John will never have any other significance to me other than being a source of idolatry, and I doubt I will ever be able to even consider the 'book of revelation' seriously. Sorry.

 

[roberto]

There would not be a church or christianity as we know it without Paul and John.

Zardoz, the only "church" you will find in the Tyndale "new testament" is with reference to the temple of Diana.

The Tyndale "new testament" was the first ever translated into English.

You can do an online search here for the word "church" in the online searchable Tyndale "new testament" :
Search for 'church' - TYN - Include Resources - Study Desk

Results :
Ac 14:13 - Then Iupiters Preste which dwelt before their cite brought oxe and garlondes vnto the churche porche and wolde have done sacrifise with the people.
Ac 19:37 - For ye have brought hyther these me whiche are nether robbers of churches nor yet despisers of youre goddes.

Tyndale was burned at the stake in 1536 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale
.

 

[Zardoz]

I meant how the word church is used today, usually referring to an institution which professes Incarnationist Trinitarian theology.

 

[Freelance_Policeman]

Is this open to Messianic Gentiles as well?

What is your complete view of John? I personally don't like it either.

 

[Zardoz]

Is this open to Messianic Gentiles as well?

What is your complete view of John? I personally don't like it either.

Of course, the MJ DIR covers a wide spectrum of belief from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds. One can be a Noachide Gentile and be Messianic as well; one can be Orthodox Jew in practice and be Messianic as well.

Myself, I don't accept John at all. Paul either. JMHO, I don't have quarrel with those who do, but I can't. No matter what good intentions these two had, what came from them over the centuries I can't endorse or accept personally, even if I would agree gentiles have been helped by them.

Welcome to RF, and welcome to the MJ DIR.

Shalom