astral projection is biblical

[AgnosticBoy]

Remember I said above about experiences and interpretation of experiences and logic? Ok, well in all these religions, people can have meditations and gods and philosophies. Here is what I would do, TEST the method to see if it works. Apply logic to the philosophy. The meditation can be correct without all the philosophy and without all the gods. Some truth is in all of it and some error is in all of it.

Sure I can test different methods but the question is if it is right to engage in these practices or does the Bible approve of it. That question is not answered by the Bible in my view.

I agree with you that Paul did not SEEK to have an OBE, I disagree however that God DIRECTLY caused his OBE. I believe his OBE was directly caused by his stoning. In other words, what happened to him is what we would call today a near death experience. Paul was stoned in Acts 14:19-20. Also scholars note that 14 years prior to when Paul mentioned being caught up to paradise, would have had him being in lystra where he was stoned. This is a logical interpretation because this is HOW near death experiences also work.

I'm not sure if it is a reasonable interpretation without looking at the evidence or source for this scholars views. But it is possible as you say that he had a near-death experience.

The “astral plane” is only a word, it’s something we call it. It’s a name people use today. But, the bible calls it the heavenly realms. In Colossians 1:16 it says “

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” And in Ephesians 6:12 “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” And 1 Peter 3:22 “Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.”

The bible just uses different names or language for the same thing. The astral planes are just another name for the spirit world. I think experience and logic allow for this.

The astral plane may be a spirit plane but it may not be the same as the spirit plane that is mentioned in the Bible if it works differently or contains different things. I also can not assume that all of the worldviews are supposed to be connected because for all i know some experiences may be hallucinations or as some Christians say '.. tricks of the devil.

It don’t have to, to be still, is like meditation. The bible talks about dreams. Well, a form of meditation is lucid dreaming, one can also have an OBE through a lucid dream. Jesus said go into your room and close the door and pray to your father who is in secret. Jesus also said the kingdom is within. What does meditation do, it goes within, the secret place.

Praying in secret just means praying where no one can see you as opposed to praying within or whatever you are referring to. Jesus did not say to pray in secret because the kingdom was within, but rather he said that because people were praying in public to show off their holiness. He wanted to avoid that.

The kingdom being within us means that God lives within us through the Holy Spirit. Our body is the temple. This does not mean that God endorses the type of meditation that you're proposing to assess him. He does not advocate meditation at all, other than to engage in deep thinking rather than quieting your thoughts. You're making a lot of assumptions here.

Look at what Elijah did when he heard the whisper of God; he covered himself with his cloak. This in principle is the same thing.

It’s not so much the “METHOD” one uses to connect to the soul, the spirit, or God, as in the success. Whatever WORKS, if it works and is safe, then it should be fine.

It's not always a whatever works because God may want things done a certain way. I can use the devil to try to connect to my soul or to have an OBE and I doubt God would approve of that. I could consult psychics to know about my future, but God may want me to use just Him.

Remember I said above about experiences and interpretation of experiences and logic? Ok, well in all these religions, people can have meditations and gods and philosophies. Here is what I would do, TEST the method to see if it works. Apply logic to the philosophy. The meditation can be correct without all the philosophy and without all the gods. Some truth is in all of it and some error is in all of it.

Sure I can test different methods but the question is if it is right to engage in these practices or does the Bible approve of it. That question is not answered by the Bible in my view.

Your missing the point, we are to receive God’s spiritual gifts, but we are also to WORK at developing those gifts. I have a gift of a body, but does that mean I sit around and believe God will move my body for me? That’s a misunderstanding of what having a natural gift is, well it’s the same with spiritual gifts.

You say that we have to do work on developing those gifts and what work would that be? How do you know that it's up to us as opposed to God doing the work and we just use faith and prayer? That's what Jesus did.

The Bible does not mention that any spiritual gift comes naturally apart from God. What you're saying may be right in reality but the point of this thread is if it is Biblical.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

The bible does not directly justify it or directly unjustify it. But, I think it alludes to us being free to do it.

I agree with your first statement but not the second one. It may allude to OBEs occuring spontaneously or through God's power or some process which is part of death which i would see as also being set up by God.

What’s wrong with focusing energy or quieting the mind?

It is a spiritual practice because the soul (mind) is immaterial. According to the Bible we are afterall spiritual beings, in part since we have a soul. I see no biblical basis for trying to isolate your soul from your body pre-death or to purposely seek after OBEs and other psychic abilities. Furthermore, meditation for the purposes of what you explained is derived from yoga tradition which has its own gods, spiritual experiences, and philosophies.

You actually can have an OBE with your mind still being active. But it has to be a focused active. If you have one thought, or hold one imagination, that’s fine, as long as it’s controlled, and your thoughts are not all over the place.

The bible actually does encourage us to control our thoughts. It says take every thought captive.

I've heard of people having OBEs without being in a meditative state but we're still not getting at what caused it or if those types are real. Scientists have also been able to stimulate certain regions of the brain to induce an OBE, or certain aspects of an OBE - it's not a real OBE of course.

What you said about the Bible has to do with keeping our mind off of ungodly things, like sin. It does not refer to transcendental meditation.

It does not forbid seeking after them. And God does not bring on everything for us all the time. Many times he wants us to walk things out.

What meditation can lead to is what makes me believe that it is likely not supported by God.

 

[Jollybear]

The minor errors that I brought up may not be enough to prove that God does not exist but it does lead me to doubt the infallibility, including that of the original texts. The errors aren't the only problem but also the lack of evidence for the originals to examine them for their alleged infallibility.

Lack of evidence for the originals? What do you mean? There was originals (autographs). Do you mean like there is no evidence the autographs were not changed? If so, I would disagree, I think the evidence is strong that they were not changed. The hundreds of manuscripts compared show the message is not changed. Church fathers quotes show it’s not changed. The oldest dated manuscript is closer to the originals than any other ancient book in history to it’s autographs.

I think that’s good evidence. But was there never any mistakes, like misspells, run on sentences, slight omissions, sure there was, and each scribe made different minor errors. But the overall message was not tampered with.

Well I tend to start from scratch and say that I'm not 100% sure that a God exist, and that he would be all-good if he did exist. If I can't be sure about his existence and character due to lack of evidence/experience, then I also can't assume that being 'inspired' by this God would ensure honesty from the biblical writers. All of these assumptions need to be covered step by step since I'm not a Christian and I tend to go by evidence and/or logic. Limitations in what I can know (like if God even talked to these writers to begin with, etc) restricts my use logic and evidence.

The evidence for God is very high. Order, complexity and design in the universe. Near death experiences, and spiritual experiences of diverse kinds; these are the evidence for God.

The writers of the bible, lets narrow on them. They had spiritual experiences. They claimed to witness Jesus open blind eyes, raise the dead, heal the sick, walk on water, and predict his own death and resurrection. Then seen him rise from the dead, and appear to them again and again over a period of 40 days. The Spirit then came upon them and they went out to tell what they witnessed.

They died for their claims.

People die for their faith that may not be true, these men did not have faith; they were witnesses of these events. You don’t have faith if you have knowledge. No one dies for what they KNOW is a lie, yes people die for what they believe is true but it happens to be a lie. But these men were in the position to KNOW if it was true or not.

I call that BIG evidence in my book.

Speculation does not answer it for me. If babies were present, and the passages I referred you to earlier mentions infants being involved, then I have no doubt that God ordered for the killing of the righteous with the wicked.

All of the options you mentioned still doesn't cover the principle of not destroying the righteous with the wicked. As soon as a baby is killed no matter for what reason, that is a killing of an innocent.

If reincarnation is true, and they were paying karma, then they would not be truly innocent.

If reincarnation was not why, then justice is a messy issue. Let me give you a analogy. Suppose you have a dad who has a son, other family members are out of the scenario. The dad murders someone, so the police capture him and sentence him to death. Now the son is without a dad to raise him, and so he gets sent to a orphanage. The child is messed up now because of it.

Justice was done, but the child is messed up now, justice creates a mess. What do you do? Do you let the dad off the hook so he can raise his son? Or do you have the son go to the orphanage? Both have their pro’s and cons.

This is what’s going on with Israel and the Canaanites. There is a pro and a con going on here. Does God not use Israel to do justice and teach them not to steel land? Or does he tell them just make peace? If you make peace then your teaching that it’s ok to steel other peoples land, if you take the land back through war, then this creates a mess. But, justice is a necessary part of life.

Plus, the Nephiliam were not ONLY in the days of Noah, they also continued afterward. Scripture makes this clear too. Now about the issue of killing the animals? In the book of Enoch if I remember, the animal seeds were mixed up too to make different hybrids of things. They had to be destroyed.

This is a matter of God going too far with His wrath and judgement. Your #1 point mentions that these babies were hybrids but I doubt every single one of these babies were hybrids, and these hybrids, if they existed, were supposed to be killed during the Great Flood. The text does not mention that the Amalekites were descended from or part of any nephilim or hybrid race but to the contrary God wanted every remnance of them wiped off the Earth because they attacked Israel. That is specifically what the text says.

The nephilam were still in the land. Also, yes, if the Amalekites attacked Israel, then justice needs to be served. Don’t misunderstand now; going into someone else’s land to take it over and kill them off is not justice. But going into land that was allotted to you from the past and that was taken from your fathers, then going in the land to take it back, THAT is justice.

 

[Jollybear]

Near-death experiences have not been objectively verified and by verified I mean the experiencer being able to relay information that they shouldn't have known about due to their deteriorated state.

This is not totally true, there is many near death experiences where people verify things they could not have known any other way accept they were out of their body and witnessed events. There are numerous examples of this.

There is the AWARE study being done by Dr. Sam Parnia and he places random images on shelves right above the bed of patients. If they have an NDE and float above their body, then theoretically they should be able to see the image. AS of yet, there has been no positive result.

I remember listening to this doctor on youtube, and he said he did put something above a patients bed, something they could not see and could not reach. She had a NDE and saw the thing he put up there and told him it. It was accurate what she saw.

I’m still looking for that video. I watched it awhile back, but I can’t find it now. Not because it’s not there anymore, it probably is, I just don’t know what I typed in to find it. But I will find it for you.

But besides that, there are hundreds of veridical NDE’s where people see things they could not have known any other way. They did not see things the doctors wanted them to see, they saw other random things, but those things were accurate none the less.

As for the aware study, I read on their website, that they are putting some of there up to date results through peer review before publishing. Anyways, there is a good explanation for why most people won’t see the image in the room, there not LOOKING at it, or they don’t care about it, there focused on something else.

I like the teleological argument but it doesn't point me exclusively to the Christian God. I'd need to study the counter-arguments more, as well.

It points us to the existence of God, a God that is uncaused, eternal, and a God that is personal. That is the type of God that the evidence points to.

Design is everywhere.

Theologically-speaking, I don't see that God will work with any form of culture when it goes against his pre-existing moral law. God tells believers to come out of the world or be apart for a reason so that way culture or worldly norms don't mix in with God's standards.

Yes God says to come out from the world, true, but many times people are steeped in the world and severely conditioned. God is a God of love; he will work with society and gradually lead people out.

It's one thing for the man to have to pay for his crime but he could do that without having to marry her, especially when the woman doesn't want to marry her rapist. So another problem here is non-consensual or ARRANGED marriages.

Ok, here is another issue I want to bring up. Yes your right, the rapist can pay for his crime ANOTHER way. There is MANY ways to pay a crime. But the other issue is this, in this law the PURPOSE of the rapist marrying the women was so she could be financially secure. How else would he PAY for his crime? Who’s he going to pay? The state? The nation? Moses, God? NO! he has to PAY HER for the crime he did to HER. That was the purpose of THIS kind of marriage. Perhaps it was not a marriage of just sex and love, perhaps it was just marriage, being distant from each other and then he having to pay.

But, then there’s the other thing, perhaps he changed and then they did fall in love. There are so many possible variables.
You know what Jesus said about the law when the Pharisees used it to try to see what they could get away with the most? Jesus said “the law was put there because your hearts were HARD, but in the beginning this is not how it was”

In other words, the law’s purpose is put there because mankind has a heart that is hard against one another, a heart that will cause harm to others. That’s the PURPOSE of the law, to protect. This purpose is not just in the law of Moses, but any laws of even today. But in the beginning (or, in the kingdom of God) this is not how it is, because in God, there is only LOVE and where there is love, no harm is done, and no law is needed, because love fulfills the law.

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THat would narrow down the search quite a bit but I don't see that making the task significantly easier. I've studied Christianity for years and I still have things that I don't understand nor that have I've been able to experience.

What have you not been able to experience?

I guess I can always go for a M Div degree in each religion because to apply logic you should make sure you are working with correct information with the most reasonable understanding of the text.

I don’t think that’s necessary, you can research each religion online for free. Or you can read a book. Comparative religion is nice too.

 

[Jollybear]

Many claims of religions are not testable, can not be evidenced, some may take lifetime devotions. So I'm still of the opinion, that your method of using logic and evidence is good, but to put it in practice would be time consuming, if even possible.

Yes, it takes time, but not as much time as you may think. For instance, when you talk or debate with someone who is knowledgeable about the subject you’re questioning, you can then ask all the logical questions to his information and experience. If he can answer every question, you then have the truth, if he can’t, then you know he does not have the truth. This does not take as long as you may think. If understanding between both parties is strong, it takes even less time. Because then they don’t have to explain themselves more and more then.

Learning all of the religion, examining it, experiencing it, testing it, etc can be daunting enough just for one religion.

It may appear that way, but here’s what we need to do, STRIP every religion and ideology or worldview NAKED and get at its core. And go from there.

So I'm skeptical that anyone could find the truth in one lifetime. Perhaps they may learn about SOME truth, but that is not enough to know for sure all of the truths that apply to reality in this lifetime or the afterlife. Hek, some Christians believe that there is only ONE true God and that a lot of other religions were started by demons or other spirits without God's favor in mind.

The way I look at this, is I resist looking at things in a simple way. In other words, SOME religions would have been inspired by demons, SOME would have been inspired by men’s own self, and some would have been inspired by God. And some have a mix of truth and error. Most have truth and error.

I do think there is ONE true God though. Some religions have different names for him, but are describing the same thing. Some religions just have a different God and are not describing the same thing. One just has to be careful. Treat everything as a case by case basis.

This assumes that the matter is testable or that logic can be applied. Once you get into experience that can lead to get into subjective conclusions and personal preferences.

There are other ancient books one can get further details from as well. But as long as one is careful in interpreting their experiences and open to experience and careful and honest in there logic, it should be fine. Honesty is the main ingredient in all this.

That's the thing in question. Are OBEs themselves moral when not done through God's power. Transcendental meditation or those meditation that stems from Eastern practices/philosophy is also what I'm telling you the Bible does not support and is therefore in question here, as well.

If OBE’s are immoral because there not done through God’s power, then everything else we do in life is immoral because it’s not done through God’s direct power.

You speak of meditation as if it's a normal human function just like eating but it really depends on your intent/purpose for meditating and the type of meditation.

The purpose if it’s good, makes the meditation good. I don’t know why the TYPE would matter?

If by meditation you're referring to focusing inwardly then that has its roots in yogic traditions/philosophy and is associated with various spiritual experiences and "higher states of consciousness". That's doing more than just a biological need like sleeping or eating or taking an examination. Yes, and I see it as a possibility that God would see this as a sin just like he doesn't want people to do good based on their own power but to use His power through His spirit as opposed to our human nature.

This makes no sense to me. If God does not want us to do good without his power, then why did he give us power to do good without his power? If he already gave us power to do it, then we are doing it through a level or measure of his power already.

Again, it depends on the purpose of the meditation.

Right, agree.

 

[Jollybear]

The astral plane may be a spirit plane but it may not be the same as the spirit plane that is mentioned in the Bible if it works differently or contains different things. I also can not assume that all of the worldviews are supposed to be connected because for all i know some experiences may be hallucinations or as some Christians say '.. tricks of the devil.

Umm, no, the spirit plane is the spirit plane. There’s no two spirit planes, just like there’s no two different material planes. Yea, there’s many different levels and things and activities going on in the spirit planes that are different from one another, but it’s still all in the same and one spirit world. Just like many different things going on in the physical world, but it’s all the one material world.

Some experiences in the spirit realm are tricks of the devil, SOME things are NOT tricks of the devil. And one should be VERY careful what they call a trick of the devil. Jesus did things that the Pharisees called the devil, and Jesus warned them that they were stepping on dangerous grounds when doing that. Jesus gave a test to figure out what is a trick of the devil and what is not. Inspect the FRUIT. Watch out for false prophets, they appear in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are wolves. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes? A good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit”. Paul says the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self control.

Usually in near death experiences, either some or all of a person’s indoctrinations are destroyed. But SOME of the experience comes with amazing joy and euphoria. That’s the fruit, and there life is changed afterward. So, it would be wrong to call an experience like this a trick of the devil, PER Jesus words.

The kingdom being within us means that God lives within us through the Holy Spirit. Our body is the temple. This does not mean that God endorses the type of meditation that you're proposing to assess him. He does not advocate meditation at all, other than to engage in deep thinking rather than quieting your thoughts. You're making a lot of assumptions here.

Are the assumptions based in rationality or “logic”? Yes they are. Ill explain: The kingdom is WITHIN because God lives in us by the Spirit, we are the temple. Ok, our soul then would be the priest, Jesus would be the high priest. Jesus rent the curtain or veil. Well, to go in the holy of holies (heaven, spirit world ect) we would have to go WITHIN, or IN through the holy place and then go deeper into the most holy.
How do we do that? Not by physically walking, because this is a typology, we do it by meditation. That’s how you WALK WITHIN sort of speak. I’m just using simple logic here.

 

[Jollybear]

It's not always a whatever works because God may want things done a certain way. I can use the devil to try to connect to my soul or to have an OBE and I doubt God would approve of that. I could consult psychics to know about my future, but God may want me to use just Him.

If whatever works does not harm you at the same time it works, then God wants you to utilize it. If it harms, but works, God does not want you to utilize it. Having a OBE with the devils help would harm you, even though it could work.

Sure I can test different methods but the question is if it is right to engage in these practices or does the Bible approve of it. That question is not answered by the Bible in my view.

The bible does not have to give direct approval for astral projection, it does not give direct disapproval. So if it was really that serious and wrong in God’s eyes, he surely would have warned against it, but he did not, because it’s not that serious.

You say that we have to do work on developing those gifts and what work would that be? How do you know that it's up to us as opposed to God doing the work and we just use faith and prayer? That's what Jesus did.

The Bible does not mention that any spiritual gift comes naturally apart from God. What you're saying may be right in reality but the point of this thread is if it is Biblical.

Right in reality is what matters, because reality is the truth, and the truth is all that matters.

But, to answer, God gave us natural gifts, obviously, we have life, we can walk, we can talk, we can think, we can type on this forum, we can work, we can do this or that, all those are abilities and abilities are gifts, each person has different levels of the same ability. In other words, they are more gifted if their ability is greater than another’s. Everyone can sing, everyone has the ability, so everyone has the gift, but not everyone can sing well, so, some are more gifted in singing then others. IF someone who can’t sing well, trains, they can learn to sing BETTER than they did before. It may not mean they will sing better than the other person who already can sing very well, but they will sing better. That is working on developing there gift or ability.

It’s the same with spiritual gifts. Everyone has spiritual abilities, some more than others, but everyone can work at developing them. It’s not just faith (belief) and prayer (asking), it’s ACTIVE in nature. Jesus demonstration of faith is active, not passive. Jesus said in John 5:17 “my father is always working and I am too”. Also John 10:37 “do not believe me unless I do the works of my father”.
John says “faith without works is dead”.

I've heard of people having OBEs without being in a meditative state but we're still not getting at what caused it or if those types are real. Scientists have also been able to stimulate certain regions of the brain to induce an OBE, or certain aspects of an OBE - it's not a real OBE of course.

How you know there not real? I think they have a level of an OBE, just not a DEEP level. Kinda like a person going in the ocean up to their feet and then someone else swimming out deep over there head.

What you said about the Bible has to do with keeping our mind off of ungodly things, like sin. It does not refer to transcendental meditation.

It can refer to a lot of things in principle, the main thing is, controlling your mind. Whether you’re trying to stop sinful thoughts or just control your thoughts, either way, your training to control your thoughts.

What meditation can lead to is what makes me believe that it is likely not supported by God.

And what does it lead to that makes you believe it’s not supported by God?

To me, meditation leads to lower stress, which helps your physical health, it can lead to expanded consciousness or awareness. It can lead to OBE’s in deep levels of meditation. And OBE’s can lead to experiencing the spirit realm, heaven, hell, spirits, exploration, extra sensory knowledge of things you wish to know.

What’s so bad about that?

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Lack of evidence for the originals? What do you mean? There was originals (autographs). Do you mean like there is no evidence the autographs were not changed? If so, I would disagree, I think the evidence is strong that they were not changed. The hundreds of manuscripts compared show the message is not changed. Church fathers quotes show it’s not changed. The oldest dated manuscript is closer to the originals than any other ancient book in history to it’s autographs.

I'm referring to evidence that the autographa contained no errors of any kind. You wouldn't examine that matter by just comparing different COPIES of the autographa but you'd also have to compare the information in the autographa to what we know from logic and science. I'm aware that there are thousands of manuscripts for the NT, but not the same can be said for the OT. Now what you said is valid that not all of the manuscripts would have the same mistakes, but that would depend on how many manuscripts you have for the particular passage that I referred to you regarding the number King Solomon's horse stalls. And then you'd have to see if they really don't have the same mistake, because it could be that the ORIGINALs actually did make that error just as anyone else who publishes a writing may get the details mixed up. From there, all other COPIES would copy that same error. It is possible for people, whether it be someone copying a work or the original author, to make contradictory claims and inaccurate statements, in other words.

I think that’s good evidence. But was there never any mistakes, like misspells, run on sentences, slight omissions, sure there was, and each scribe made different minor errors. But the overall message was not tampered with.

Perhaps.

 

[Jollybear]

I'm referring to evidence that the autographa contained no errors of any kind. You wouldn't examine that matter by just comparing different COPIES of the autographa but you'd also have to compare the information in the autographa to what we know from logic and science.

There were errors in the COPIES, and I don’t doubt there were even errors in the originals. Errors as in spell mistake, run on sentences. But the overall message I don’t think was changed.

I'm aware that there are thousands of manuscripts for the NT, but not the same can be said for the OT.

With the discovery of the dead sea scrolls, very OLD copies of the OT were found, and compared to the more newer manuscripts, the message is virtually the SAME. It was not changed. Minor errors are to be expected with scribes, but those kinds of mistakes are irrelevant.

Now what you said is valid that not all of the manuscripts would have the same mistakes, but that would depend on how many manuscripts you have for the particular passage that I referred to you regarding the number King Solomon's horse stalls. And then you'd have to see if they really don't have the same mistake, because it could be that the ORIGINALs actually did make that error just as anyone else who publishes a writing may get the details mixed up. From there, all other COPIES would copy that same error.

This is true, I agree. Either the originals made the horse stall mistake, or the copy or copies did. But either way, it makes no difference with regards to the bigger message.

It is possible for people, whether it be someone copying a work or the original author, to make contradictory claims and inaccurate statements, in other words.

Right, but also, sometimes a apparent contradiction, is a true contradiction, thus is a falsehood. But sometimes an apparent contradiction is NOT a TRUE contradiction, it’s just perceived as such because the rest of the details are not filled in, but if they were, the misunderstanding would be cleared, and the appearance of a contradiction would no longer be there.

 

[PearlSeeker]

There is a documented 200 years old question and a reply by a rabbi. It's about about energy work and various phenomena in hypnosis (trance). I think it can also apply to astral projection and other "paranormal" phenomena and latent abilities.

"Rabbi Ettlinger’s opinion is that the practitioners’ attempts to explain the various phenomena naturalistically make these treatments halakhically permissible, and he distinguishes between these practices, on the one hand, and the use of Forces of Impurity or names of foreign deities, on the other."

Source:
Reiser D. Mesmerism, Hypnosis and Jewish Mystics in Vienna in the Early Twentieth Century
https://ef.huji.ac.il/sites/default/files/europe/files/daniel_reiser_for_web.pdf

 

[PearlSeeker]

While I think these practices are acceptable there has to be a distinction between occult (hidden) and spiritual. Seeking occult knowledge and miraculous powers is not the same as spiritual seeking. As Paul said:

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." (1 Cor 13)

Sometimes even spiritual goods renounced for God's sake are greater good:

If a man were in an ecstasy as St. Paul was (2 Cor. 1 2 : 2-4), and if he knew of a sick person who needed a bowl of soup from him, I would consider it far better if you were to leave that rapture out of love and help the needy person out of greater love. (Meister Eckhart)

 

[Muffled]

I want to talk to a Christian or a Jew about astral projection. Why do you think it's demonic? Why do you think God does not aprove of the practice of astral projection via meditation techniques? What is your scriptural evidence and logical argument that astral projection is wrong? Currently I am convinced it's not wrong or demonic from scripture, but am open to debate it and be convinced otherwise. And i hope i got this question in the right section of the forum, not sure. But either case, here it is.

For those who don't know, astral projection is the means of having out of body experiences through meditation and mind work.

I can't remember seeing an injunction against it. However I believe it is dangerous. Without the spirit the body is vulnerable. Certainly a person meditating isn't in the position of Jesus where leaving the body meant that the body would die but there is a danger in being away from a body so long that it dies of thirst. There is no clock in the spirit world to remind a person to return on time.

 

[Muffled]

If you think about this, you release this every night you go to sleep. Sweet dreams.

I believe I can't remember ever having a dream I wasn't aware of but If I wasn't aware of it how would I. What I do have are dreams that I am aware of at the time but don't remember afterwards other than the fact that I had them.

 

[Muffled]

May I ask for clarification? What is the take-away spiritual experience of out of body experiences (as contrasted with astral projection)? For instance, flying over the house of your friend, etc. What insights spiritually is derived from this? It seems you're just doing a sort of "remote viewing", as opposed to actually penetrating into spiritual insight and wisdom. What am I missing?

I believe it was claimed that Edgar Cayce did remote viewing to help diagnose a person's illness.