astral projection is biblical

[satori8]

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing this. This is exactly the problem with so many New Age experience seekers. It is why I say with good reason, that New Age is really just an Experimental Christianity. His encounter with "Satan", that dark malevolent terrifying face was his own subconscious mind! I know what this place looks like in meditation, and unlike this man who went off on an experience-seeking thrill ride of bliss, the inner path is a difficult, and often frightening one because you are meeting your own inner demons!

Yes. When you astral project. You simply face your own mind, of your own creation, and images manifest to express something. We gain knowledge from these images, and can work at cleaning house.

This is not some external force of bad guys. It our own face that we have to meet head on, and through that Grace of God, through Faith, we are able to disarm this demon, this face of ourselves we hide from and which ultimately appears as it does because we FEAR it. We FEAR facing the end of ourselves. We FEAR, and the devil appears. Now trying to hide it by saying such silliness as "I cover you by the blood of Jesus," etc, is actually empowering it. What happens when we meet that fear, do so without fear, by the Grace of God, by that power, the "devil" our demon, disappears. It is only ourselves, and by this we "conquer death". We vanquish its bitter sting. We are freed.

Yes and I think God would want us to be responsible in slaying our own demons.

I understand your, and most people's aversion to the inner path. It is because we are afraid of what lays in there. We do not want to truly face the face we hide from. Because when that face appears, we will see it as the devil.

Gnosticism and Kabbalah teaches that light is within, and we bring light into the darkness. Buddhism, when they speak of the realms, the creations are all mind.

This guy was all joy and bliss, and not ready to face what needs to be actually done when you go there. And that is facing death itself! Your own death. "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me". To death. You face the fear of death. Death and resurrection, lays within. Not your flesh. You go to hell, and are raised.

The devil is the face we put upon our fear. He confronted his demon, and ran scared. He ran off to hide once again. Was he really ready to die to himself? I say no.

The devil or a demon is us in dreaming. Some call it the shadow. What we do with that knowledge is up to us.

 

[Shiranui117]

Do you mean that the body is familiar territory as armor? I did not understand your reponse their. Their's another scripture which also states that God is a wall of fire about us, so he is our armor and our wall, here is God being a wall of fire passage in Zachariah 2:5. In Psalms 18:2 it says God is our refuge and shield. Also Psalms 91 talks about abiding in the shadow of God, he protects them. So, over and over, it's not the body that protects, shields or shelters us from the demonic, it's God that does so.

Can you point me to one place in Scripture where anyone by themselves triggers an OBE, without God Himself doing it?

"Right, I COULD say that. And no you don't HAVE to fly trillions of miles outside the galaxy in order to praise God for his wondrious works, you can say it in the body. But, if you WANT to fly out trillions of miles and look down at the milkyway and tell God "how wonderfull are your works o Lord, how great your handy work, your power and glory is so vast" what would be so wrong with that? And could a demon look at that and even want to be near you as you say it? The bible says "God inhabits the praises of his people" so if you are up their trillions of miles up and praising God, is a demon going to "inhabit" that? Not when God inhabits it. Also to fly trillions of miles up to look down at the milky way, is relatively an easy feat ONCE your out of your body, just thinking of going to a place, you shoot their like a light rocket. So, it's not like it would be hard. The only hard part is projecting out of the body. But my point is, if we are praising God looking at the milky way after flown up their, what is so bad about it?

Would you say witchcraft, divinations and seances are okay if you're doing them to praise God?

Arent we FREE to roam within God's creation? Science does it all the time, Nasa seeks to fly in ships as far out in space as possible. Oceanologests seek to dive deeper into the ocean and explore, arent we free to do all of that? Nothing wrong with that right? So why would it be any different with this?"

Because they're not using OBE's to do it. Their souls are exactly where and how they should be--united and within the body.

True it's not necessary to have an OBE in order to BELIEVE in the spirit realm, but when you experience the spirit realm through witnessing it, it adds to your belief, knowledge, thus making it more solid through experience. And for some poeple, not all, that experience they need, because they are constant doubters.

OBE's are far from being the only proof of the spiritual. There are a multitude of other proofs, such as dreams, visions, sensations, perceptions, and (in-body) experiences that prove to us the reality of spiritual things. Truth be told, there are some people who cannot be convinced of the spiritual, no matter what. If God Himself slapped their soul in its proverbial face, they would not notice, or attribute it to a psychological reaction. Even an OBE would simply be treated as a hallucination. Even your method of testing it would be considered mere coincidence.

Sleep gives as a taste of what death is like? Hardly, i cannot see that at all.

Psalm 133:3 says this: "Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;"

So yes, there is Scriptural precedence for viewing sleep as a foreshadowing of death.

Their is two benefits that i can think of off the top of my head. First is, it makes you experience God through sound and sight, rather then just feelings of joy, peace and love.

Mystics by the boatload experience God through sound and sight while being in the body.

Secondly, if your more hungry for higher or different levels with God and different experiences with him, well, this is the second reason. You can explore with it.

If you're hungry for higher or different levels with God, then cooperate with Him and ask Him that you may be made worthy or deigned as such by God. The suggestion you made is the type of thing that got Adam and Eve kicked out of Paradise. "Oh, you want to be like God? Alright, eat this fruit from the tree that God told you not to eat of, and BADABING! You'll be like Him, you'll become gods! You don't have to work with Him or obey Him, you have a shortcut!"

Hidden knowledge, let me give you a whole list that i can think of. Fly to the moon, other planets, to see if their is life on them or not. Fly to the white house, the bildeburg meeting they have once a year, to see what's going on in secret. Fly to a friends house who doubts the spirit realm, have him put some objects on the table, so you can see them, then tell him later what they were. Fly to hell, fly to heaven. Explore, learn the frequencies and energy that the astral or spirit realm is made of. Act like a scientist with regards to it. Explore different espects of the earth and find certain things out, that material science has not yet figured out. Theirs a host of things you can do with this. The sky is the limit(not literally though, lol). Go to area 51, you know, where governments forbid people from entering. Find things out.

What is the benefit of any of this for us spiritually?

Kinda like what i am asking conserning the devil, since our bodies are not armor, what difference does it make whether we are in or out of the body?

God gave us bodies for a reason. They're not things that we just leave sitting around while we have OBE's all over the place.

In light of experiencing God, being in or out of the body, it also makes no difference, eccept in the arena of sight and hearing. If for instence you traveled to heaven out of body, then you would be IN heaven. Now take that vs just seeing a VISION of heaven while in the body. Having a vision of heaven, you would not be IN heaven. Here is an analogy, if you seen a video all about china on your TV, that would be allot different then actually being IN china, actually being their experiencing the place.

The people building the Tower of Babel thought they could reach Heaven through their own efforts. God sure shot them down for their arrogance. He'd do the same for you if you tried to reach Heaven by yourself. Heaven is God's domain. It's His call on who He will bring there for such an awesome encounter with Him.

Ok, i'll go with that, faith without works are dead, according to james in the New Testament. So, i'll go with that. So, where was we going with this point again? Oh, i think it was, if prayer is a work of faith and fasting a work of faith, and serving God morally is a work of faith, why can't meditation of the mind for OBE be a work of faith? Since it's using espects of our reality and self that God created.

By this logic, necromancy and witchcraft (which God expressly forbade) can be a "work of faith."

Works of faith are to pray, give alms, fast, follow the commandments, practice silence, worship, study the Scriptures, and practice the virtue, and obey all the things that Christ set out for us to do. Works of faith are to cooperate with God's will, to deepen our relationship with Him and with our fellow man.

 

[Windwalker]

Yes. When you astral project. You simply face your own mind, of your own creation, and images manifest to express something. We gain knowledge from these images, and can work at cleaning house.

Oh absolutely. This is why it is called insight meditation. The images manifest are expressions of something, indeed. I see these in two basic ways.

First, the images speak to us of our own lives here, things within us that are parts of our psyche, such as the shadow persona, or areas of imbalance, things suppressed or repressed through culture, our own anxieties, shame, guilt, etc. We normally do not look at these with our normal waking conscious mind, but they are there all the time and they impact and directly affect us in our lives without us knowing it. What meditation does, entering into this subtle domain is it takes the subconscious mind and allows it to be seen and experienced through symbolic fashion by the waking mind directly within the state of the superconscious mind. This was the first thing I encountered moving into the subtle realm in meditation. It is a healing and necessary place to go in order to bring things into a relative state of inner balance in order to move further. This stage is really the low-subtle domain.

Next, in the high-subtle domain these images open into archetypal forms. This is the realm of luminosity, light, images of the divine, presence of mind upon mind. This is an opening of our waking conscious mind to the Source of our own being, and the Goal of our awakening mind into. It is the highest form of symbolic expression to our minds of what transcends all that is and the Ground of all Being from which all arises. This is the domain of realizing our own soul, the highest form of our own individual self in relation to the Absolute.

And then we move beyond this, and all images disappear. They dissolve, the flow into you and you into them in a merger. I describe it as "heaven dissolves, and you awaken as your true self." There is no separation between yourself and God. My mind is God's mind. My will is God's will. It is pure witness to all that is, to all that arises without judgment. It is stillness. It is silence. It is all-knowing.

And then from there, the light of this Ground illuminates all that is with itself and the single bird singing in the tree, is the heart and the soul of this eternity in it present moment of being. It is your voice, your heart, your being.

Yes and I think God would want us to be responsible in slaying our own demons.

What I find in my experiences within this is that it is to learn how to master all things in ourselves through the understanding of the nature of who we are, and learning a cooperation of ourselves towards that Goal. The metaphor I use is that we are learning how to walk on water, to master the storm through the will of the divine awakened within us. This is what arises and opens to me in this process. It is true this does happen, and it is transformation.

What I find about these 'demons' however, is not that we slay them, but through love, we release and transform them to serve good. They are the face we put on them because they represent the fear of ourselves. They are 'acting out' as a child who doesn't understand the source of its own anxieties. It wants the parent to see it, to know it, to give it love. We give ourselves the love we are denying ourselves, which creates these unruly wailing, ill-behaved children in us we see as separate from us, as demons.

In not fearing these, in being filled with divine love in ourselves, we take that hurting child and see beyond its fearful face and offer it pure, perfected love. It's energy then is released and this aspect of ourselves now serves Love, and works with us towards that. It is a reconciliation with ourselves, and bringing to the light that which is hidden in darkness, and letting it serve Love. This is a frightening place to go, but necessary if we wish to overcome death itself, so to speak. In continuing to fear and avoid, it's power continues in us until we do. They are us, created by our own rejection of ourselves.

They are us needing to be acknowledged and healed, to have their masks taken off and for us to see ourselves in them and to love them. It is how we learn to love ourselves. And in loving ourselves, we allow God to then transform us into that Light, into the fullness of God's being within us.

 

[Jollybear]

These are part of the same answer. I think someone who has a psychological imbalance may not be able to integrate what their subconscious mind has to say to them, because they have a split, a disassociation with their deeper inner voice. Something has broken for them psychologically, and to open that without the guidance of a safe 3rd party to help them navigate this terrain can be potentially damaging for them, because they are unprepared to confront face to face that repressed, suppressed parts of themselves.

All that psychotherapy tries to do is to guide someone into that inner space of their own subconscious mind, but it has to be done gradually. They cannot provide 'answers' as those answers lay within the person themselves, if they are to successfully uncover them. It is about self-discovery, and guiding them to that place. But this is in the setting of a therapy session for those who are in some state of manifest dysfunction or pathology. To go into meditation in the deep areas beyond mere 'relaxation', is to take you into that part of yourself that is hidden from view, yet always there, always communicating with you.

And so when I say you have to have a relatively stable psyche, it means you are in a place where, even though what you may confront may be jarring, or even frightening, you are of such a mind and overall state that you can handle, or deal with, what is exposed. Someone broken or unstable may not be. Not having enough basic footing, or stability in their lives, may lead to not being able to handle what they see.

Hence, the response of fundamentalists expressing their own innate fear of facing what is in that deep as "Satan". It's their face they put on their own sense of fear of what lays in their own psyche. It is in fact, probably better for them to not go there, if they have no one trustworthy to help guide them into themselves in a path of self-awareness.

Interesting, now lets say someone does not want to or care to have someone guide them through it, but they happen to be broken, which means according to what your saying, they may not be able to handle it. But, what if they FORCE themselves to handle it? Ok, they come into contact with that scary face of themeselves and they are terrified, what if they force themselves to face it, deal with it, imbrace it, love it, stay their with it, or whatever, then what? Would it still be damaging to them? Would this not be the exercise of courage to do this on their part?

Also that part of my OBE i told you about, where i seen all the spirits come through the walls of my room, with their intent gaze in their eyes. Perhaps that was an espect of myself that i needed to face?

I hesitate, because you should not enter into those spaces looking for this or for that to happen. When you do, you miss it. I say this as one with experience!

Let me share something with you that is to me the most important thing to understand about this whole process. Mediation, effective meditation, consists of two things:

1. Intention. Every thing you do, your purpose for the practice, must rest on your intention. It is the touchstone that keep you present, that brings you back, the sets your course. "I want to know God", for instance. When you drift in meditation, come back to your intention. Keep yourself there. Etc.

2. Have no expectations. Do not look for this or that result!! Do not look for end results. Do not say, 'this worked yesterday, it's not today, what's wrong?'. When you have expectation, or anticipations, or hopes, or wishes, or desires, or longings, or needs, etc., etc., you are focusing on yourself! As the focus shifts from God to you, God recedes, or rather you took your eyes off God. You receded.

It is a hair's-breadth line between your desire for your needs, and your desire for God. Who are you looking at? Let that be your focus. And from there, from that simple, yet extraordinary difficult division between the intent of that desire, results in experiencing God as God, or experiencing the needs of yourself in your searching.

"Seek and you shall find", is not you seeking because you want this for yourself. It is seeking for God, as God, for the sake of God. You do that, you will find.

So from this i have two questions

first is: why is it that when you have certain desires or expectations for something to happen in the meditation, that, then something goes outside what you expect or something does not meet your desire. Why is this? Or why does God not wish to meet your need or desire or expectation? What is his reason for this?

Second question is: How do we love God more then ourselves, so we can seek God for the sake of God, and not seek God for ourselves? How do we do this?

 

[Jollybear]

Can you point me to one place in Scripture where anyone by themselves triggers an OBE, without God Himself doing it?

first Corinthians 5:1-5 may not prove my point, but it sorta implies it indirectly. Paul is saying he was not physically present with the church, but was their in spirit and the power of the Lord when it's present, he paul will pass judgment on this particular wicked person that was sleeping with his fathers wife. So, the "fruitless deeds of darkness were explosed"(Ephesians 5:11). Also second kings 2:5-26 Elisha says to gahazi that his spirit was with him when he recieved clothes and treasure from Naman. It does not say that God made his spirit fly near gahazi either. True, it does not say that Elisha projected his own spirit to fly near gahazi.

Revelation 1:10 John says "On the Lords day i was in the Spirit". Now i know their is not enough to go by with this, but the way i look at this is: it's the Lords day, you kinda get the sense that John is making a delebarate effort to worship God, take time to pray, take time to listen, to meditate, it's the Lords day after all, so it's a delebarate thing, so he is PUTTING HIMSELF in the Spirit, he is in control of whether he enters in or comes out. THEN after he enters in, he lets God have full control, the Spirit then has full control. Then he hears a voice say "come up here" and then he is in the Spirit and he sees a thrown in heaven and sees other things, that is chapter 4:1-3. So, i think God IS willing to bring us into these full experiences, but we CAN have full control of whather or not we enter into it. True some people have spontanous OBE's.

As for Ezekiel i'll concede God did all of that, as for Paul, God probably did that, although he like John could have put himself in the Spirit and the Spirit is always willing to bring us into visions of God.

Look at this verse here in Ephesians 1:20 it says we are raised up with Christ in heavenly realms. Ok, so, that is our place right now in the sense that it's our home, it's where are new citizenship is. We are born of God, so we have a birthright, that birthright is, heaven, that is our country sorta speak. I currently live in the united states, but i am from canada, my citizenship is their. Even though i am not currently living in or in canada, do i still have a right to go their without a passport? Of course, because i am a citizen of that place. It's the same with heaven, if we are born of God through Christ, we have a right to go their, travel their, be their. Philipians 3:20 says our citizenship is in heaven. Hebrews 11:13-16 says "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them." If God has prepared a city for us, what is wrong with traveling to it now? If we are citizens of it now, what is wrong with traveling to it now freely?

Would you say witchcraft, divinations and seances are okay if you're doing them to praise God?

I'm going to shock you with this statement, but YES, if you do divinations for the glory of God, then it's ok. Everything of God, satan can mimic or pervert it. Satan does not OWN the spirit realm, satan does not OWN divination, satan does not OWN sorcery, satan does not OWN astrology, he does not OWN the occult, he does not OWN, ANYTHING, he has ROBED EVERYTHING and has PERVERTED everything. Their is a false divination, false sorcery, false astrology, false occult, but their is a true divination, a true sorcery, a true astrology. Yes, i have a case i have built for all of this as well. I have put lots of thought into all of this. I'm prepared to answer all scriptural proof texting that may be thrown my way about this too.

So you still have not answered my question. If you self induce an OBE and fly up to the milky way and say to God "how great are your works O lord" and God says he inhabits the praises of his people. How then can a demon get you doing this?

Because they're not using OBE's to do it. Their souls are exactly where and how they should be--united and within the body.

Who says our souls have to be ALWAYS united to our bodies? What's wrong with having an OBE and then the rest of your day you are in your body and going about your other experiences. If God which you have already conceded that he gives OBE's spontaniously or soverignly and that's ok, then it's OK, to be OUT of the body at times according to God. So in light of this, what is wrong with flying to the milky way, looking around, learning some stuff, just like nasa would like to do, they just do it in a spaceship, either way, you learn it. Nothing wrong with it, true, one is out of body, one is in a spaceship, while in the body, but either way, you learn the same thing, just the OBE one is easier and more cost effective, and it's ok to be out of the body sometimes, just as long as your not out ALL the time, because God wants you to have a well rounded life with experiences IN your body. So, what is wrong with my point here?

OBE's are far from being the only proof of the spiritual. There are a multitude of other proofs, such as dreams, visions, sensations, perceptions, and (in-body) experiences that prove to us the reality of spiritual things. Truth be told, there are some people who cannot be convinced of the spiritual, no matter what. If God Himself slapped their soul in its proverbial face, they would not notice, or attribute it to a psychological reaction. Even an OBE would simply be treated as a hallucination. Even your method of testing it would be considered mere coincidence.

Dreams, hmmm, i would say dreams are a low level evidence of the spirit realm, but they are not DIRECT proof of the spirit realm. Visions, the same as dreams, low level evidence of the spirit realm. Sensations? Same, perceptions? Same, in body experiences, like apparations, i'll give you that, apparations are direct proof of the spirit realm, i'll concede that one to you. I'll also concede that some people won't be convinced even if God slaped them upside down, or if they had an OBE, or flew to their friends house and saw objects on the table and came back and told their friend what they saw, and got it right. True, they might think their hallucinating and that the objects they just got em right cause of coincidence. But, these folks, you just forget them, move on to dealing with more, REALISTIC people, serious people, people that got their head in the game sorta speak. I'm talking about people who are real, serious, but they just have honest doubts, they are real sceptics and if they were given this kind of experience, they would treat it seriously and lose their doubts. So, how could the devil, be IN that, if they self induced an OBE and lost their doubts? Devil would not want them to lose their doubts, right? Plus, those folks who would attribute the test as being coincidence? What if they did the test over and over, like ten out of ten times, and each time the objects on the table at their friends house was different each time and each time they got it right. Then would it be coincidence? Not at all. They would KNOW it would not be coincidence. If they said it was, then their lying to themselves and they know it. They would just be afraid, that's all.

 

[Jollybear]

Psalm 133:3 says this: "Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
So yes, there is Scriptural precedence for viewing sleep as a foreshadowing of death.

Ok, i'll give you that one, but only partially because, although sleep is a foretaste of what death is like, it's only so in the sense of what the BODY will feel like in death, NOT what the SPIRIT will feel like. An OBE is a foretaste of what the spirit will feel and be like at death, your just reffering here to the body. But their are two parts to a death experience, the body and the spirit. Body dies(sleeps) spirit comes out(OBE}. So, sleeping is only a part of what the death experience is like as a foretaste, an OBE completes what the death experience is like as a foretaste.

Mystics by the boatload experience God through sound and sight while being in the body.

I'm sure they do and that's great, i'm just trying to figure out how their experiences with God in the body are superior over the experience with God OUT of the body? Or what makes praising God walking up a trail any better then praising God flying through the milky way in a OBE? We already astrablished that God is OK with the spirit leaving the body sometimes, so you can't make the point that God made soul and body to be united ALL the time, because God did not even unite them ALL the time in cases in scripture. So, if one is having an OBE self induced, praising God flyin through the milky way, and then comes back to the body, and has other down to earth experiences, while praising God, what's so bad about it?

If you're hungry for higher or different levels with God, then cooperate with Him and ask Him that you may be made worthy or deigned as such by God. The suggestion you made is the type of thing that got Adam and Eve kicked out of Paradise. "Oh, you want to be like God? Alright, eat this fruit from the tree that God told you not to eat of, and BADABING! You'll be like Him, you'll become gods! You don't have to work with Him or obey Him, you have a shortcut!"

Now i can see where and why you could see this, but their is a DIFFERENCE between adam and eves case and doing a self induced OBE. Here is how i see the Adam and Eve case. God wants us to come to knowledge the RIGHT WAY, not the WRONG way. We should not come to knowledge the HARD way, the hard way is the wron way. Think of a parent who tells their child not to touch the hot stove, then the child touches it and burns their finger. Ok, the child just learnt (knowledge) the hard way, the WRONG way. Learning the right way would have been: "Dad, why don't you want me to touch the burner?" Dad says "because the day you do, you will burn your hand". Adam and eve already came to knowledge the RIGHT WAY BEFORE they even eat the fruit, for God said "do not eat that fruit, the day you do, you will surely DIE". They KNEW what DIE meant, it meant, no longer being around, not existing anymore, what it was like BEFORE they came to be, that body, hands, feet, head they have, they won't have no more. So, they knew, God told them, they had the knowledge. So, dad says, you will hurt your finger, your hand. Dad might even show him a picture or a video of what a person goes through who hurts their hand. Child may be like, oh my gosh, that don't look good. I don't wanna touch the burner now. I'll trust you dad. That would be learning the RIGHT way, the easy way, not the hard way. Was God forbiding Adam and Eve from comming to the knowledge of good and evil? No, he wanted them to have knowledge, just not the wrong way, not come to that knowledge through SINNING, but through trusting and through seeking to understand the reasoning behind the rule God gave. Personally, i think that fruit was probably a drug, that is personally my interpretation, based off of some other biblical passages where God is against drugs. Witchraft in gelatians is "pharmakia" which means taking drugs and worshiping false idols.

What is the benefit of any of this for us spiritually?

The benifit of all the reasons for having an OBE that i mentioned, is a fewfold. When you travel to heaven, you experience what goes on their, that would be a spiritual experience. When you travel to hell, that would magnify your graditude that this would not be your God given destiny. Traveling to area 51, the white house, the bildeburg group, all of this is to expose the fruitless deeds of darkness in DETAIL. To go to a friends house, look at the objects on the table he puts their, go back to your body, call your friend, tell him what you saw. It's to help HIM and YOU, build your trust in the reality of the spirit world. It's to expell doubt. Expelling doubt, that is beneficial spiritually. Learning God's creation, both in the physical and in the spiritual, that is benificial spiritually, because God wants to bring us into knowledge and wisdom. The bible says God prizes knowledge ABOVE ALL things (proverbs 2)

God gave us bodies for a reason. They're not things that we just leave sitting around while we have OBE's all over the place.

Ok, using your same line of logic, i will make a point against you. God GIVES someone an OBE, they don't self induce it, so God gives them a body, unites their soul to it, then he disunites the soul and gives it an OBE, so then God is not fullfilling the purpose of uniting the soul and body together? You see how pointless that sounds. Well, it's just as pointless using that line of logic against someone self inducing an OBE, because whether God does it, or we self induce it, we are not ALWAYS at ALL times AWAY from our body, traveling all over the place, ALL the time. No, we still live in the body and have experiences in the body and do things in the body TOO. But if a person was to have lets say, 3 OBE's per week, and lets say they lasted 2 hours, and then ALL the other days in the week, and the rest of the days hours on the day's you have OBE's, you have all of that time combined IN your body, to experience more then enough IN body stuff. So, what's the problem? Your MORE then enough in time fullfilling the purpose of having the soul and body united.

The people building the Tower of Babel thought they could reach Heaven through their own efforts. God sure shot them down for their arrogance. He'd do the same for you if you tried to reach Heaven by yourself. Heaven is God's domain. It's His call on who He will bring there for such an awesome encounter with Him.

You bring up an interesting point here and i have thought about this passage for quite sometime. However, their is MUCH to be gleaned from this passage. First we have to take into account motives. What was their motive for building this tower? Obviously people build towers much larger today and God did not stop those buildings from being built. What was their motive? Look at Isaiah with regards to the message against the king of babylon, in chapter 14:12-15 "How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit." What was his motive? What was THEIR motive at this tower? It was to be LIKE the most high, not to be above him, they knew that would be a futile attempt, and to raise their positions above the stars of God, that is the gods/angels/aliens, whatever you wanna call them, i don't care at the moment, i'm just trying to make a point here. So, their motive was one of rebellion against the structure of authority that GOD set in place. Their motive was one of arrogance and pride. But if their motive would have been to LEARN and WORK with the most high, with the stars of God, building this tower would have been just fine. You see, that is what lucifer was all about, rebellion against everything God is about. Look at Balaam, at one point he was walking along on his donkey, ready to go meet balak and God was going to strike him for going. Then when Balaam seen the angel ready to strike him, God then told him, to go see balak. Well, wait a minute? God was going to strike him for going to see balak, then God told him to go see balak? Huh? The "HUH" goes away once you take into consideration MOTIVES. God was keeping his evil motive IN CHECK with warning him. It was not that going to see or meet balak in and of itself was evil, it was that going with an evil motive, WAS EVIL!

By this logic, necromancy and witchcraft (which God expressly forbade) can be a "work of faith."

Absolutely! Necromancy and witchraft IS a work of faith. And no, God does not forbid these things in their UNPERVERTED structure and if their done in context of serving God. I have a whole article written up on this backing my points with scripture, i can paste it here in a seperate post if you wish, it's pretty big though.

Works of faith are to pray, give alms, fast, follow the commandments, practice silence, worship, study the Scriptures, and practice the virtue, and obey all the things that Christ set out for us to do. Works of faith are to cooperate with God's will, to deepen our relationship with Him and with our fellow man.

And OBE's can be used to pray, to fast, to follow the commandments while in the spirit realm, to be silent, to worship, practice virtue, you can cooperate with God's will while your out of your body, like "ok, God, where would you like me to fly to today? and for what purpose?"

 

[satori8]

Oh absolutely. This is why it is called insight meditation. The images manifest are expressions of something, indeed. I see these in two basic ways.

First, the images speak to us of our own lives here, things within us that are parts of our psyche, such as the shadow persona, or areas of imbalance, things suppressed or repressed through culture, our own anxieties, shame, guilt, etc. We normally do not look at these with our normal waking conscious mind, but they are there all the time and they impact and directly affect us in our lives without us knowing it. What meditation does, entering into this subtle domain is it takes the subconscious mind and allows it to be seen and experienced through symbolic fashion by the waking mind directly within the state of the superconscious mind. This was the first thing I encountered moving into the subtle realm in meditation. It is a healing and necessary place to go in order to bring things into a relative state of inner balance in order to move further. This stage is really the low-subtle domain.

I see you have studied some Jung. Yes I agree we are able to go and explore the shadow and unconscious mind via astral projection or lucid dreaming. By shedding light into this part of mind you are right we can achieve balance. Its not all that much different than a psychologist hypnotizing a patient and having them go deep. Same means to an end.

Next, in the high-subtle domain these images open into archetypal forms. This is the realm of luminosity, light, images of the divine, presence of mind upon mind. This is an opening of our waking conscious mind to the Source of our own being, and the Goal of our awakening mind into. It is the highest form of symbolic expression to our minds of what transcends all that is and the Ground of all Being from which all arises. This is the domain of realizing our own soul, the highest form of our own individual self in relation to the Absolute.

Yes we are able to see the complexity of the soul via these images and what is fascinating is we can see the images can be universal when we access them.

And then we move beyond this, and all images disappear. They dissolve, the flow into you and you into them in a merger. I describe it as "heaven dissolves, and you awaken as your true self." There is no separation between yourself and God. My mind is God's mind. My will is God's will. It is pure witness to all that is, to all that arises without judgment. It is stillness. It is silence. It is all-knowing.

And then from there, the light of this Ground illuminates all that is with itself and the single bird singing in the tree, is the heart and the soul of this eternity in it present moment of being. It is your voice, your heart, your being.

Yes very true.

What I find in my experiences within this is that it is to learn how to master all things in ourselves through the understanding of the nature of who we are, and learning a cooperation of ourselves towards that Goal. The metaphor I use is that we are learning how to walk on water, to master the storm through the will of the divine awakened within us. This is what arises and opens to me in this process. It is true this does happen, and it is transformation.

What I find about these 'demons' however, is not that we slay them, but through love, we release and transform them to serve good. They are the face we put on them because they represent the fear of ourselves. They are 'acting out' as a child who doesn't understand the source of its own anxieties. It wants the parent to see it, to know it, to give it love. We give ourselves the love we are denying ourselves, which creates these unruly wailing, ill-behaved children in us we see as separate from us, as demons.

In not fearing these, in being filled with divine love in ourselves, we take that hurting child and see beyond its fearful face and offer it pure, perfected love. It's energy then is released and this aspect of ourselves now serves Love, and works with us towards that. It is a reconciliation with ourselves, and bringing to the light that which is hidden in darkness, and letting it serve Love. This is a frightening place to go, but necessary if we wish to overcome death itself, so to speak. In continuing to fear and avoid, it's power continues in us until we do. They are us, created by our own rejection of ourselves.

They are us needing to be acknowledged and healed, to have their masks taken off and for us to see ourselves in them and to love them. It is how we learn to love ourselves. And in loving ourselves, we allow God to then transform us into that Light, into the fullness of God's being within us.

yes it depends for me if I should love them or slay them. Like the other night I had a very bad man show up. So I called on the 'higher self' or like an aspect of myself, to dispatch him. He showed up and then removed him before he could do harm. So I suppose it really depends. Just main thing is don't really want to be harmed while doing these things. My goal is peace and wholeness.

 

[Windwalker]

Interesting, now lets say someone does not want to or care to have someone guide them through it, but they happen to be broken, which means according to what your saying, they may not be able to handle it. But, what if they FORCE themselves to handle it? Ok, they come into contact with that scary face of themeselves and they are terrified, what if they force themselves to face it, deal with it, imbrace it, love it, stay their with it, or whatever, then what? Would it still be damaging to them? Would this not be the exercise of courage to do this on their part?

I think what I'm trying to say is not that we have unresolved, painful issues, being broken and whatnot. I'm talking more about psychological issues, such as mental illnesses or clinical depression. Someone with say a borderline personality disorder going directly into their own subconscious mind this way, might not properly interpret what it is telling them. This is where they would benefit by having someone to help guide them through this, to keep them connected to reality, grounded as it were, rather than them just going sailing off into some dissociation unreality like a schizophrenic break.

I'm simply say someone with mental issues should seek the guidance of a professional before embarking on such a path. That said, everyone has issues, but are we able to live our lives in some reasonably stable manner? If so, it's something if you feel you want to go into you'll likely be able to handle it.

So from this i have two questions

first is: why is it that when you have certain desires or expectations for something to happen in the meditation, that, then something goes outside what you expect or something does not meet your desire. Why is this? Or why does God not wish to meet your need or desire or expectation? What is his reason for this?

I would say God does wish this. But you have to learn "how" to "do" this the correct way. Which is, ironically, to learn how "not do", to "not try". You have to unlearn, to learn.

What you experience in meditation, what you learn in this process, is that everything you normally do in our lives to achieve or attain a goal, must be abandoned and you have to first unlearn that way of doing it. It works the exact opposite of that, in fact.

The Buddhists call it the effortless effort. I agree! You do, by not doing. "Seek and you shall find", is to seek to release all your grasping, clinging, trying to cease, trying to attain, trying to achieve, trying to understand, etc. Your work is simple: learn how to allow.

As you allow Grace to open, you learn to follow, you learn to hear, you learn to obey, you learn to allow, you learn to become. Your job is easy really, you have not try. And that is where the hard work for you begins!

Once that is somewhat learned (something you come back to again and again, I'll add), that's when things really open to you, as you are ready to proceed, step by step, stage by stage, from "glory to glory," so to speak.

Second question is: How do we love God more then ourselves, so we can seek God for the sake of God, and not seek God for ourselves? How do we do this?

By emptying all your desires and wants into God. You die to yourself. You die, so you may live.

 

[Shiranui117]

first Corinthians 5:1-5 may not prove my point, but it sorta implies it indirectly. Paul is saying he was not physically present with the church, but was their in spirit and the power of the Lord when it's present, he paul will pass judgment on this particular wicked person that was sleeping with his fathers wife. So, the "fruitless deeds of darkness were explosed"(Ephesians 5:11).

It doesn't imply an OBE at all. Paul gets the message from the Corinthians about what's going on, and he sends his epistle back that passes judgement on the matter.

Also second kings 2:5-26 Elisha says to gahazi that his spirit was with him when he recieved clothes and treasure from Naman. It does not say that God made his spirit fly near gahazi either. True, it does not say that Elisha projected his own spirit to fly near gahazi.

Gahazi? Naman? I think you quoted the wrong part of Scripture.

Revelation 1:10 John says "On the Lords day i was in the Spirit". Now i know their is not enough to go by with this, but the way i look at this is: it's the Lords day, you kinda get the sense that John is making a delebarate effort to worship God, take time to pray, take time to listen, to meditate, it's the Lords day after all, so it's a delebarate thing, so he is PUTTING HIMSELF in the Spirit, he is in control of whether he enters in or comes out. THEN after he enters in, he lets God have full control, the Spirit then has full control. Then he hears a voice say "come up here" and then he is in the Spirit and he sees a thrown in heaven and sees other things, that is chapter 4:1-3. So, i think God IS willing to bring us into these full experiences, but we CAN have full control of whather or not we enter into it. True some people have spontanous OBE's.

No, John did not "put himself" in the Spirit. God takes people's spirits, if it is indeed an OBE and not a visionary ecstasy.

As for Ezekiel i'll concede God did all of that, as for Paul, God probably did that, although he like John could have put himself in the Spirit and the Spirit is always willing to bring us into visions of God.

God granting it to us is not the same as us putting ourselves in it. Such things are a gift from God, not things that we can do willy-nilly.

Look at this verse here in Ephesians 1:20 it says we are raised up with Christ in heavenly realms.

Read the verse again. "which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,"

It is a verse about the Ascension of Christ.

If God has prepared a city for us, what is wrong with traveling to it now? If we are citizens of it now, what is wrong with traveling to it now freely?

Because God has ordained for us to enter into that city at the Last Day, not right now. We must be obedient to God in all things.

I'm going to shock you with this statement, but YES, if you do divinations for the glory of God, then it's ok . . . Yes, i have a case i have built for all of this as well. I have put lots of thought into all of this. I'm prepared to answer all scriptural proof texting that may be thrown my way about this too.

I'd like to see this.

So you still have not answered my question. If you self induce an OBE and fly up to the milky way and say to God "how great are your works O lord" and God says he inhabits the praises of his people. How then can a demon get you doing this?

Because us spontaneously causing OBE's without God Himself doing it is in and of itself a mark of pride and deviating from cooperation with Him. If God wanted us to go up to the Milky Way and praise Him there, then He Himself would cause the OBE.

Who says our souls have to be ALWAYS united to our bodies? What's wrong with having an OBE and then the rest of your day you are in your body and going about your other experiences. If God which you have already conceded that he gives OBE's spontaniously or soverignly and that's ok, then it's OK, to be OUT of the body at times according to God. So in light of this, what is wrong with flying to the milky way, looking around, learning some stuff, just like nasa would like to do, they just do it in a spaceship, either way, you learn it. Nothing wrong with it, true, one is out of body, one is in a spaceship, while in the body, but either way, you learn the same thing, just the OBE one is easier and more cost effective, and it's ok to be out of the body sometimes, just as long as your not out ALL the time, because God wants you to have a well rounded life with experiences IN your body. So, what is wrong with my point here?

Without physical evidence, you can't be sure that what you're learning about the Milky Way is actually true. Scientific evidence can only be tangible evidence.

Dreams, hmmm, i would say dreams are a low level evidence of the spirit realm, but they are not DIRECT proof of the spirit realm. Visions, the same as dreams, low level evidence of the spirit realm. Sensations? Same, perceptions? Same, in body experiences, like apparations, i'll give you that, apparations are direct proof of the spirit realm, i'll concede that one to you. I'll also concede that some people won't be convinced even if God slaped them upside down . . . I'm talking about people who are real, serious, but they just have honest doubts, they are real sceptics and if they were given this kind of experience, they would treat it seriously and lose their doubts. So, how could the devil, be IN that, if they self induced an OBE and lost their doubts? Devil would not want them to lose their doubts, right? Plus, those folks who would attribute the test as being coincidence? What if they did the test over and over, like ten out of ten times, and each time the objects on the table at their friends house was different each time and each time they got it right. Then would it be coincidence? Not at all. They would KNOW it would not be coincidence. If they said it was, then their lying to themselves and they know it. They would just be afraid, that's all.

Satan plays whatever game we're playing to tear us away from God. There are people who are very much aware of the spirit realm who worship demons and Satan, and pay absolutely no heed to God. Learning the reality of spiritual things does not in and of itself bring someone to God. If you want to bring someone to God, then you show them the reality of God. And in those cases, the evidences I have described are the best ways to do it, because they are the ways that people in Scripture come to know God. Jacob's ladder was a dream. Paul's encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus was a vision. There are other examples. What you call "low-level" evidences are things that God routinely uses to bring people to a fuller understanding of Himself.

 

[Shiranui117]

An OBE is a foretaste of what the spirit will feel and be like at death, your just reffering here to the body. But their are two parts to a death experience, the body and the spirit. Body dies(sleeps) spirit comes out(OBE}. So, sleeping is only a part of what the death experience is like as a foretaste, an OBE completes what the death experience is like as a foretaste.

I'm sure they do and that's great, i'm just trying to figure out how their experiences with God in the body are superior over the experience with God OUT of the body? Or what makes praising God walking up a trail any better then praising God flying through the milky way in a OBE? We already astrablished that God is OK with the spirit leaving the body sometimes, so you can't make the point that God made soul and body to be united ALL the time, because God did not even unite them ALL the time in cases in scripture. So, if one is having an OBE self induced, praising God flyin through the milky way, and then comes back to the body, and has other down to earth experiences, while praising God, what's so bad about it?

OBE's that God causes are superior to self-induced ones, because in the former, we are submitting to God, and God gives us a gift. In the latter, we're not united to God, we're off doing our own thing.

I'm not quite sure what you're not understanding about the difference between our submitting to God and God giving us a gift, and us doing our own thing without working with God. We DO NOT "do our own thing" in the spiritual life. Mystical experiences aren't games that we can play. They're gifts from God, and should be treated as such. If we want one, then we should pray to God, and if God deems it fit, then He will grant it to us. Shortcutting God is never a good thing.

Now i can see where and why you could see this, but their is a DIFFERENCE between adam and eves case and doing a self induced OBE. Here is how i see the Adam and Eve case. God wants us to come to knowledge the RIGHT WAY, not the WRONG way. We should not come to knowledge the HARD way, the hard way is the wron way. Was God forbiding Adam and Eve from comming to the knowledge of good and evil? No, he wanted them to have knowledge, just not the wrong way, not come to that knowledge through SINNING, but through trusting and through seeking to understand the reasoning behind the rule God gave.

Yes, this is it exactly. This is the position of the Church Fathers. But Adam and Eve already knew right from wrong; the tree was called the Knowledge of Good and Evil because Adam and Eve were experiencing firsthand how terrible and soul-crushing it was to fall into sin, and how wrong it is to disobey God--not because they learned right from wrong through sin. In fact, Adam and Eve knew good and evil even better than we do now, because their perception was not marred by sin!

So you can see why I make the connection between self-induced OBE's and Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit. In both cases, people are going off and doing their own thing. In both cases, people aren't submitting to God. In both cases, people think they can gain something (either godlike status or whatever else) without God granting it.

Personally, i think that fruit was probably a drug, that is personally my interpretation, based off of some other biblical passages where God is against drugs. Witchraft in gelatians is "pharmakia" which means taking drugs and worshiping false idols.

This actually comes from the fact that pharmaceuticals and medicine-making in those days was believed to be a magical work, or something connected with the doctor's/medicine-maker's religion.

The benifit of all the reasons for having an OBE that i mentioned, is a fewfold. When you travel to heaven, you experience what goes on their, that would be a spiritual experience.

Without God bringing us there, it would never even happen.

When you travel to hell, that would magnify your graditude that this would not be your God given destiny.

Only if we cooperate with God's grace to ensure that such would not be the case.

Traveling to area 51, the white house, the bildeburg group, all of this is to expose the fruitless deeds of darkness in DETAIL.

All you have to do for that is to turn on the news. No need to have an OBE for that.

To go to a friends house, look at the objects on the table he puts their, go back to your body, call your friend, tell him what you saw. It's to help HIM and YOU, build your trust in the reality of the spirit world.

Trust in reality of spirit world=/=trust in God.

It's to expell doubt. Expelling doubt, that is beneficial spiritually.

Doubt of what?

Learning God's creation, both in the physical and in the spiritual, that is benificial spiritually, because God wants to bring us into knowledge and wisdom. The bible says God prizes knowledge ABOVE ALL things (proverbs 2)

GOD wants to bring us into knowledge and wisdom. Notice what you said there carefully. The only true way to gain knowledge and wisdom is to gain it from God.

Ok, using your same line of logic, i will make a point against you. God GIVES someone an OBE, they don't self induce it, so God gives them a body, unites their soul to it, then he disunites the soul and gives it an OBE, so then God is not fullfilling the purpose of uniting the soul and body together?

God put our souls in our bodies, and He reserves the right to take them back out. That's no issue. God reserving that right is not the same as us reserving that right.

Well, it's just as pointless using that line of logic against someone self inducing an OBE, because whether God does it, or we self induce it, we are not ALWAYS at ALL times AWAY from our body, traveling all over the place, ALL the time. No, we still live in the body and have experiences in the body and do things in the body TOO. But if a person was to have lets say, 3 OBE's per week, and lets say they lasted 2 hours, and then ALL the other days in the week, and the rest of the days hours on the day's you have OBE's, you have all of that time combined IN your body, to experience more then enough IN body stuff. So, what's the problem? Your MORE then enough in time fullfilling the purpose of having the soul and body united.

Again, how do you not see the gargantuan difference between God giving us OBE's, and we ourselves causing them/

You bring up an interesting point here and i have thought about this passage for quite sometime. However, their is MUCH to be gleaned from this passage. First we have to take into account motives. What was their motive for building this tower? Obviously people build towers much larger today and God did not stop those buildings from being built. What was their motive? Look at Isaiah with regards to the message against the king of babylon, in chapter 14:12-15 "How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit." What was his motive? What was THEIR motive at this tower? It was to be LIKE the most high, not to be above him, they knew that would be a futile attempt, and to raise their positions above the stars of God, that is the gods/angels/aliens, whatever you wanna call them, i don't care at the moment, i'm just trying to make a point here. So, their motive was one of rebellion against the structure of authority that GOD set in place. Their motive was one of arrogance and pride.

Look at Genesis 11 again:

“Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”

Here we see people attempting to exalt themselves through their own efforts. The people literally said that they wanted to build their tower so that it would reach Heaven, i.e. humanity would come to be equal with God.

But if their motive would have been to LEARN and WORK with the most high, with the stars of God, building this tower would have been just fine. You see, that is what lucifer was all about, rebellion against everything God is about.

Rebelion, disobedience and indifference to God, yes.

Absolutely! Necromancy and witchraft IS a work of faith. And no, God does not forbid these things in their UNPERVERTED structure and if their done in context of serving God. I have a whole article written up on this backing my points with scripture, i can paste it here in a seperate post if you wish, it's pretty big though.

I'd like to see this one.

And OBE's can be used to pray, to fast, to follow the commandments while in the spirit realm, to be silent, to worship, practice virtue, you can cooperate with God's will while your out of your body, like "ok, God, where would you like me to fly to today? and for what purpose?"

God doesn't want us to fly to places in OBE's. He wants us to do good works, commune with Him, and help redeem the world. Us inducing OBE's serves no role in that, and is no help.

 

[Windwalker]

I see you have studied some Jung. Yes I agree we are able to go and explore the shadow and unconscious mind via astral projection or lucid dreaming. By shedding light into this part of mind you are right we can achieve balance. Its not all that much different than a psychologist hypnotizing a patient and having them go deep. Same means to an end.

I actually hadn't read any Jung until after I began this inner work within meditation. My partner gave me for Christmas two years ago Jung's Red Book as a present. She told me I wouldn't have understood this before, but it seemed a good time for me to look at it. The big Red Book, as you may know was his personal diaries and illustrations of his journey into the subconscious, upon which all his later academic works draw from. His family had just released the rights to it, and the one I have is the full size coffee table edition. It's amazing.

Each illustration leaps out at me and I'd scream, "This is it!". Reading his journal entries was the same thing. "That's it, this is it!", I kept saying. Her gift to me was after I'd been meditating for about 4 months at that point.

The one illustration that blew me away when I saw it as I immediately related to it was this one:

NPR: 'The Red Book' by CG Jung

yes it depends for me if I should love them or slay them. Like the other night I had a very bad man show up. So I called on the 'higher self' or like an aspect of myself, to dispatch him. He showed up and then removed him before he could do harm. So I suppose it really depends. Just main thing is don't really want to be harmed while doing these things. My goal is peace and wholeness.

Yes, some we pay no heed to, as often times those can just be our minds trying to distract us, because that's what our minds like to do. It really depend on what is the experience.

 

[Jollybear]

I think what I'm trying to say is not that we have unresolved, painful issues, being broken and whatnot. I'm talking more about psychological issues, such as mental illnesses or clinical depression. Someone with say a borderline personality disorder going directly into their own subconscious mind this way, might not properly interpret what it is telling them. This is where they would benefit by having someone to help guide them through this, to keep them connected to reality, grounded as it were, rather than them just going sailing off into some dissociation unreality like a schizophrenic break.

I'm simply say someone with mental issues should seek the guidance of a professional before embarking on such a path. That said, everyone has issues, but are we able to live our lives in some reasonably stable manner? If so, it's something if you feel you want to go into you'll likely be able to handle it.


I would say God does wish this. But you have to learn "how" to "do" this the correct way. Which is, ironically, to learn how "not do", to "not try". You have to unlearn, to learn.

What you experience in meditation, what you learn in this process, is that everything you normally do in our lives to achieve or attain a goal, must be abandoned and you have to first unlearn that way of doing it. It works the exact opposite of that, in fact.

The Buddhists call it the effortless effort. I agree! You do, by not doing. "Seek and you shall find", is to seek to release all your grasping, clinging, trying to cease, trying to attain, trying to achieve, trying to understand, etc. Your work is simple: learn how to allow.

As you allow Grace to open, you learn to follow, you learn to hear, you learn to obey, you learn to allow, you learn to become. Your job is easy really, you have not try. And that is where the hard work for you begins!

Once that is somewhat learned (something you come back to again and again, I'll add), that's when things really open to you, as you are ready to proceed, step by step, stage by stage, from "glory to glory," so to speak.


By emptying all your desires and wants into God. You die to yourself. You die, so you may live.

How do we unlearn in order to learn? How do we learn to allow? How do we stop trying to cease, how do we stop trying to cling. How do we stop trying to understand in order to understand? How do we stop trying to experience in order to experience?

 

[Windwalker]

How do we unlearn in order to learn? How do we learn to allow? How do we stop trying to cease, how do we stop trying to cling. How do we stop trying to understand in order to understand? How do we stop trying to experience in order to experience?

Exactly the opposite of asking how, which is all seeking to do. In a word, you fall. You let go, and fall into the Ocean.

Remember I said it's the easiest thing in the world to do once you do it? But it's the hardest thing you do while you continue to try to do it. It is an 'effortless effort'. The only way you know what it looks like, is to allow it to happen.

I have come to understand the meaning of the word faith, in such an act.

As you move into meditation, and you find yourself in that presence, give yourself to it. Not for yourself, but for itself. Offer yourself to it, wholly. It is the meaning of the word surrender.

 

[Jollybear]

It doesn't imply an OBE at all. Paul gets the message from the Corinthians about what's going on, and he sends his epistle back that passes judgement on the matter.

Paul said he was absent in body, but present in spirit. Why didn't he say i am with you in thought? Why did he say i am with you in spirit?

Gahazi? Naman? I think you quoted the wrong part of Scripture.

Pard me, i did a misstype. I meant to put 2 kings 5:26, Elisha says to gahazi was not my spirit with you when you recieved treasure from naman. And no, elisha did not have any letter reporting what gahazi did.

No, John did not "put himself" in the Spirit. God takes people's spirits, if it is indeed an OBE and not a visionary ecstasy.

I have three questions for you.
First is: how do you know John did not put himself in the spirit on the Lords day?

Second: are you saying IF john was having a visionary acstacy and not a OBE that we can then put ourselves in that?

Thirdly: If we can't put ourselves in the Spirit, how then do you interprete these verses: Ephesians 5:18 "be filled with the Spirit"(it's a command, a command is something you OBEY, something you obey is something YOU DO, NOT GOD). Ephesians 6:18 "pray in the Spirit on all occations" (again it's a command). Jude 1:20 "building YOURSELVES up in the most holy faith, praying in the holy Spirit." it does not say God is building you up, it says your building yourselves up in the faith, and you are praying in the Spirit. It does not say God does it for you, he is giving instructions to DO this. So WE are the ones that DO this, not God. Verse 21 says "keep yourselves in God's love" it does not say God keeps us in his love, it says we keep ourselves in God's love. So that means we put ourselves their and keep ourselves their. Romans 8:13 says if by the Spirit WE put to death the deeds of the flesh, we shall live. It does not say the Spirit does it all, it says if WE do it, BY the Spirit. So their is always this cooperation with the Spirit. It would be the same with an OBE. But, to my question, how do you interprete these verses if we can't put ourselves IN the Spirit?

God granting it to us is not the same as us putting ourselves in it. Such things are a gift from God, not things that we can do willy-nilly.

the bible says "Everything is permissible"-but not everything is beneficial. "everything is permissible"-but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" verse 29 "for why should my freedom be judged by anothers conscience?"(1 cor 10:23-29) and 1 cor 8:9 "Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stubling block to the weak." This is not saying we should not exercise the freedom of things, but we should not do it in the pressence of someone who would stumble by it. Romans 14:21 says it's not just refering to food, but anything. 2 corinthians 3:17 says "where the Spirit of the Lord is, their is freedom and liberty" Gelatians 5:13 says we are called to be free, just not free to indulge the flesh, sin. Also Ephesians 3:12 says we can approuch God with FREEDOM. Also Collosians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day" 1 peter 2:16 "Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves". So we are FREE. Self inducing an OBE is not a DIRECT violation of any of God's laws, it's not a DIRECT sinful act. By you saying it is, you are going in line with how the pharasees did things, they would add to the laws of God and hang on them certain interpretive restrictions, but Christ rebuked them for it and said people were free from those restrictions. Pharasees would interprete the sabath day a certain way, they would interpret the command to honor the father and mother a certain way, giving gifts to God on the alter a certain way, how is that any different how you are interpreting self inducing an OBE as a form of sorcery sorta speak? Your adding interpretive restrictions when God's word proclaims freedom.

Also again i can restate my former point, yes it's a gift from God to walk down the street or walk up a trail, or go to the gym, but we are also FREE to do those things, so their not just gifts from him, we are FREE to walk them out and do them. His gift of going to the gym or walking up a trail is also a choice on our part. It's the same with an OBE, he has already given that ability as a gift, but we would have to exercise it if we so choice too. And we are FREE to do so, it's not a sin, espeasally if it's done with a good motive. So i suppose i should not walk up a trail unless God gives that too me via a gift? In other words, God has to MAKE me walk up a trail in order for me to be permitted to walk up a trail. God has to MAKE me go to the gym in order for me to be permitted to go their. Because if God does not MAKE it happen, then it's not his "gift" and if it's not his "gift" then we have no freedom to do it. You see how foolish that sounds? No, God's gifts, all of them, are gifts of abilities that we have the choice to walk out through FREEDOM.

 

[Jollybear]

Read the verse again. "which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,"

It is a verse about the Ascension of Christ.

yes, very true, it's talking about christs ascension, but it also says God raised US up WITH christ and seated US IN HEAVENLY realms. Did you miss that part?

Because God has ordained for us to enter into that city at the Last Day, not right now. We must be obedient to God in all things.

Ok, let me illustrate. Again, im a citizen of Canada, i am a legal perminent resident of the united states, LIVING in the united states. I COULD at my own free choice and it not be a wrong deed, fly or drive to canada, without a passport, enter canada and LIVE their RIGHT NOW if i want too. And i have that right. Or, if i also wanted to, i could drive their right now, visit my family their for a WEEK, then drive back to the united states and continue my life here in the united states. How is it any different with heaven? We are citizens of heaven through trust in christ Jesus. Ok, we are going to LIVE their after we die as long as we continue to serve christ, ok, well, BEFORE we go to live their permenently, we can go VISIT their (kinda like visit canada for a week, then return, then go back later permenently). You get the picture? Their's no inherent EVIL or SIN or WRONG or forbidding law about this. And so far their is not even a logical argument from your part to SHOW how it's evil, for i am dissmantling your arguments through logic (remember, God created logic too, so it's good to use).

I'd like to see this.

I'll post my case for witchcraft and sorcery in a seperate post using Scripture.

Because us spontaneously causing OBE's without God Himself doing it is in and of itself a mark of pride and deviating from cooperation with Him. If God wanted us to go up to the Milky Way and praise Him there, then He Himself would cause the OBE.

Ok, so if i spontaneously get up from bed, make breakfast, go to work, it's a mark of pride because i am putting willfull intent to do all of those things? If i make the choice to walk to the gym work out, it's a mark of pride. If i make the willfull intent to go for a hike up a trail, it's a mark of pride, because well after all, im just CHOOSING to do those things by the act of my OWN will(that God created mind you, for me to exercise freedom with, as long as it's not violating any direct law of his). Also if God wanted me to go to the gym, he would CAUSE it to happen. Also if God wants me to pray, then he will CAUSE it to happen. If God wants me to experience him, then he will CAUSE it to happen. If God wants me to cook breakfast, he will CAUSE it to happen. If God wants me to go to work, he will CAUSE it to happen. You see the foolishness in your argument? Oh wait, your saying God will not cause any of these things, we do those, just the OBE he will cause if he wants to, so in other words, you cherry pick on OBE's. Cherry picking does not work, you have to show why you cherry pick on this.

Without physical evidence, you can't be sure that what you're learning about the Milky Way is actually true. Scientific evidence can only be tangible evidence.

Oh but you can, if the test of flying to your friends house and seeing the objects is accurate, then learning other things would be JUST as accurate. Also, when you fly to the milky way and learn whatever, or to mars, and then later nasa catches up with you, before they catch up, you can publish or tell what you have learned BEFORE they tell what they found out through their material science. If when they catch up, it matches yours, or complements it, then YOU KNOW for sure.

Satan plays whatever game we're playing to tear us away from God. There are people who are very much aware of the spirit realm who worship demons and Satan, and pay absolutely no heed to God. Learning the reality of spiritual things does not in and of itself bring someone to God. If you want to bring someone to God, then you show them the reality of God. And in those cases, the evidences I have described are the best ways to do it, because they are the ways that people in Scripture come to know God. Jacob's ladder was a dream. Paul's encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus was a vision. There are other examples. What you call "low-level" evidences are things that God routinely uses to bring people to a fuller understanding of Himself.

I'm not saying God does not reveal himself in dreams or visions, of course he does. What i DID say is that a dream or a vision is a low level evidence of the spirit realm. Apparations, which God also did in scripture, those are more direct or higher proofs of the spirit realm.

I'll respond to your other post as soon as i can.

 

[Shiranui117]

Paul said he was absent in body, but present in spirit. Why didn't he say i am with you in thought? Why did he say i am with you in spirit?

What, you've never heard the expression "in spirit" before?

a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
in spirit

not physically in a place or situation but thinking about the people who are there and wishing you were there

I'm afraid I can't come, but I'll be there in spirit.

Pard me, i did a misstype. I meant to put 2 kings 5:26, Elisha says to gahazi was not my spirit with you when you recieved treasure from naman. And no, elisha did not have any letter reporting what gahazi did.

It doesn't say "was not my spirit with you." It says, both in the Greek and in the English, "was not my heart with you. Greek, καρδία."

St. Augustine interprets this as being a special ability of spiritual sight, rather than an out-of-body experience.

I have three questions for you.
First is: how do you know John did not put himself in the spirit on the Lords day?

Define "put yourself in the spirit"?

Second: are you saying IF john was having a visionary acstacy and not a OBE that we can then put ourselves in that?

No, we don't put ourselves in any spiritual state. It's all a gift from God which He graciously grants to us, and we cooperate with Him in all things.

Thirdly: If we can't put ourselves in the Spirit, how then do you interprete these verses:

The Spirit (meaning the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity) is different from the spirit (our human spirit).

Ephesians 5:18 "be filled with the Spirit"(it's a command, a command is something you OBEY, something you obey is something YOU DO, NOT GOD).

"Be filled" is passive. We allow God to fill us with the Holy Spirit. We submit ourselves from Him, and God sends the Spirit to us, Who fills us and keeps us focused on spiritual things.

Ephesians 6:18 "pray in the Spirit on all occations" (again it's a command). Jude 1:20 "building YOURSELVES up in the most holy faith, praying in the holy Spirit."

We pray in the Holy Spirit, yes. The Holy Spirit also prays for and with us, Romans 8:26-28. To pray in the Spirit means to pray under the guidance and influence of the Holy Spirit. How much have you heard about the Holy Spirit? He is the Comforter that Christ promised to us in John's Gospel. I can tell you about the Holy Spirit if you'd like.

it does not say God is building you up, it says your building yourselves up in the faith, and you are praying in the Spirit. It does not say God does it for you, he is giving instructions to DO this.

Giving us instructions to do our part in living and growing in our Christian life is to be expected. We do have our own role to play in our salvation--but without God's part, our part is meaningless.

So WE are the ones that DO this, not God. Verse 21 says "keep yourselves in God's love" it does not say God keeps us in his love, it says we keep ourselves in God's love.

Yes, "abide in Me, and I will abide in you" from John 15.

So that means we put ourselves their and keep ourselves their. Romans 8:13 says if by the Spirit WE put to death the deeds of the flesh, we shall live. It does not say the Spirit does it all, it says if WE do it, BY the Spirit.

Yes, we repent of our sins and die to them in baptism. That section of Romans 8 focuses very heavily on baptism as a death to sin and a resurrection/new birth as a new creation in Christ.

So their is always this cooperation with the Spirit. It would be the same with an OBE. But, to my question, how do you interprete these verses if we can't put ourselves IN the Spirit?

Putting ourselves under the control of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as having an OBE. How much do you know about the Holy Spirit?

the bible says "Everything is permissible"-but not everything is beneficial. "everything is permissible"-but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" verse 29 "for why should my freedom be judged by anothers conscience?"(1 cor 10:23-29) and 1 cor 8:9 "Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stubling block to the weak." This is not saying we should not exercise the freedom of things, but we should not do it in the pressence of someone who would stumble by it. Romans 14:21 says it's not just refering to food, but anything. 2 corinthians 3:17 says "where the Spirit of the Lord is, their is freedom and liberty" Gelatians 5:13 says we are called to be free, just not free to indulge the flesh, sin. Also Ephesians 3:12 says we can approuch God with FREEDOM. Also Collosians 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day" 1 peter 2:16 "Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves". So we are FREE. Self inducing an OBE is not a DIRECT violation of any of God's laws, it's not a DIRECT sinful act. By you saying it is, you are going in line with how the pharasees did things, they would add to the laws of God and hang on them certain interpretive restrictions, but Christ rebuked them for it and said people were free from those restrictions. Pharasees would interprete the sabath day a certain way, they would interpret the command to honor the father and mother a certain way, giving gifts to God on the alter a certain way, how is that any different how you are interpreting self inducing an OBE as a form of sorcery sorta speak? Your adding interpretive restrictions when God's word proclaims freedom.

No, I'm recognizing the proper place for us Christians is to be submissive to God. I'm not adding anything, nor taking anything away. You have yet to show anything about how OBE's are beneficial to our walk with Christ, in the Holy Spirit.

Also again i can restate my former point, yes it's a gift from God to walk down the street or walk up a trail, or go to the gym, but we are also FREE to do those things, so their not just gifts from him, we are FREE to walk them out and do them. His gift of going to the gym or walking up a trail is also a choice on our part. It's the same with an OBE, he has already given that ability as a gift, but we would have to exercise it if we so choice too.

We're also free to walk into a brothel and use several gifts. But are they being used properly? Clearly not.

And we are FREE to do so, it's not a sin, espeasally if it's done with a good motive. So i suppose i should not walk up a trail unless God gives that too me via a gift? In other words, God has to MAKE me walk up a trail in order for me to be permitted to walk up a trail. God has to MAKE me go to the gym in order for me to be permitted to go their. Because if God does not MAKE it happen, then it's not his "gift" and if it's not his "gift" then we have no freedom to do it. You see how foolish that sounds? No, God's gifts, all of them, are gifts of abilities that we have the choice to walk out through FREEDOM.

Now you're just trying to use a reductio ad absurdum. God specifically gave us dominion over the earth, and the earth is here for us to use as we see fit. Nowhere in Scripture did it say that God gave us the right to have OBE's left and right. You're just saying, "Dad let me use a plain old hammer, so why shouldn't I be able to use all the powertools, too?"

 

[Shiranui117]

yes, very true, it's talking about christs ascension, but it also says God raised US up WITH christ and seated US IN HEAVENLY realms. Did you miss that part?

That was in the next chapter, not in the section you referenced. I found what you mentioned after doing a keyword search. Do make sure you have your references straight; it'll make things less confusing for the both of us.

In context, Ephesians 2:1-10 describes two opposing kingdoms: Satan, the prince of the powers of the air, whose kingdom is of this world, the world that is marred by sin. We were once slaves in that kingdom, but God by His grace ransomed us, and brought us into His kingdom, which is in the heavenly places. Now of course, we weren't taken up to Heaven. But He is reestablishing His heavenly kingdom here on Earth. Jesus and John the Baptist talked a lot about how the Kingdom was at hand. Jesus even says that the Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21). God is bringing His kingdom back to earth; in the Lord's Prayer we say "thy kingdom come." We will experience Heaven (God's Kingdom) here on earth--indeed, this is possible for us even in this life.

Ok, let me illustrate. Again, im a citizen of Canada, i am a legal perminent resident of the united states, LIVING in the united states. I COULD at my own free choice and it not be a wrong deed, fly or drive to canada, without a passport, enter canada and LIVE their RIGHT NOW if i want too. And i have that right. Or, if i also wanted to, i could drive their right now, visit my family their for a WEEK, then drive back to the united states and continue my life here in the united states. How is it any different with heaven? We are citizens of heaven through trust in christ Jesus.

Comparing citizenship and residency in two earthly kingdoms is not an adequate comparison to the Kingdom of God. Apples and oranges.

Ok, we are going to LIVE their after we die as long as we continue to serve christ, ok, well, BEFORE we go to live their permenently, we can go VISIT their (kinda like visit canada for a week, then return, then go back later permenently).

Where does it say this in the Scriptures? Where does it say that we can do this of our own free will without God's OK?

In fact, from the Scriptural evidence I've come across, we will all be living here on the redeemed and renewed Earth after the Last Day and the Judgement.

You get the picture? Their's no inherent EVIL or SIN or WRONG or forbidding law about this. And so far their is not even a logical argument from your part to SHOW how it's evil, for i am dissmantling your arguments through logic (remember, God created logic too, so it's good to use).

You're using the wrong kind of logic. Not all logic is good logic, you know.

I'll post my case for witchcraft and sorcery in a seperate post using Scripture.

Ok, so if i spontaneously get up from bed, make breakfast, go to work, it's a mark of pride because i am putting willfull intent to do all of those things? If i make the choice to walk to the gym work out, it's a mark of pride. If i make the willfull intent to go for a hike up a trail, it's a mark of pride, because well after all, im just CHOOSING to do those things by the act of my OWN will(that God created mind you, for me to exercise freedom with, as long as it's not violating any direct law of his). Also if God wanted me to go to the gym, he would CAUSE it to happen. Also if God wants me to pray, then he will CAUSE it to happen. If God wants me to experience him, then he will CAUSE it to happen. If God wants me to cook breakfast, he will CAUSE it to happen. If God wants me to go to work, he will CAUSE it to happen. You see the foolishness in your argument? Oh wait, your saying God will not cause any of these things, we do those, just the OBE he will cause if he wants to, so in other words, you cherry pick on OBE's. Cherry picking does not work, you have to show why you cherry pick on this.

If you can't see the difference between making scrambled eggs and inducing an OBE, then there's something very seriously wrong with that picture. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. There are things that God reserves to Himself, and things that He restricts or forbids from us for our own good. It's not "cherrypicking," it's acknowledging God's sovereignty and wisdom.

Also, in Christianity (well, Orthodox Christianity anyway) we pray first thing when we wake up, and only after that do we go about our daily lives. And even in our daily lives, we should ideally work in prayer to everything we do, "redeeming the time", as it says in Ephesians 5:16.

If you are completely blind to the difference between foolishly causing something like an OBE on your own (which only a tiny handful of people ever even experience, let alone cause), and doing something mundane and everyday like brushing your teeth or flushing the toilet, then you need to sit down and seriously rethink a lot of things.

I'm not saying God does not reveal himself in dreams or visions, of course he does. What i DID say is that a dream or a vision is a low level evidence of the spirit realm. Apparations, which God also did in scripture, those are more direct or higher proofs of the spirit realm.

An encounter with God--no matter what form, be it the small voice that spoke to Elijah, or God having a conversation with someone, or God visiting Abraham, or angels appearing to people--can never be called "low-level" or "indirect".

 

[Jollybear]

An OBE is a foretaste of what the spirit will feel and be like at death, your just reffering here to the body. But their are two parts to a death experience, the body and the spirit. Body dies(sleeps) spirit comes out(OBE}. So, sleeping is only a part of what the death experience is like as a foretaste, an OBE completes what the death experience is like as a foretaste.

OBE's that God causes are superior to self-induced ones, because in the former, we are submitting to God, and God gives us a gift. In the latter, we're not united to God, we're off doing our own thing.

When we pray, we are doing so with the act of our own will(which God made for the exercise of freedom) but we are also submitting to God through the act of praying. When we pray, God is not MAKING us pray. Now....when we self induce an OBE through the act of our own will, God is not doing it, he is not making it happen, but through us making it happen, we can ALSO submit to God the experience, i.e "ok God, where would you like me to travel today? Also, i wanna thank you for your protection, your love (fly to the milky way or wherever) and your power is great, i see it in your handy work. Their, we just submitted to God through the experience that we self induced. Just like prayer, we submit to God through the act of prayer that we ourselves did, God did not do. It's the SAME thing. Just with a different endevor. Why is it ok to pray with the act of our will, but it's not ok to OBE with the act of our will? Tell me that one?

I'm not quite sure what you're not understanding about the difference between our submitting to God and God giving us a gift, and us doing our own thing without working with God. We DO NOT "do our own thing" in the spiritual life. Mystical experiences aren't games that we can play. They're gifts from God, and should be treated as such. If we want one, then we should pray to God, and if God deems it fit, then He will grant it to us. Shortcutting God is never a good thing.

So if i want to pray, i should ask God if he wants to MAKE me pray and if he deems it fit, he will make me pray too? Because, well, if i make myself pray, that's "off doing my own thing without working with God". Same with fasting, same with obeying the commands and the virtues and bible study. God, if you dim it fit that i study your word, please MAKE me study it, haha! If you dim it fit that i should obey your commands, please MAKE me obey them and if you don't make me do so, i won't try to obey them. When you self induce an OBE, you CAN use it for working WITH God, you don't have to be using it going off doing your own thing, YOU CAN use it for his glory. Like scripture says "whatever you do, do all for the glory of God". As i already said "God, where would you like me to travel today?" Or "how great are the works of your hands" looking at the milky way. Or "God i plan on exposing the fruitless deeds of darkness by flying to the bildeburg meeting or going to area 51 or wherever else." Or "God i want to help my doubting friend by flying to his house and telling him what objects i see on his table".

Yes, this is it exactly. This is the position of the Church Fathers. But Adam and Eve already knew right from wrong; the tree was called the Knowledge of Good and Evil because Adam and Eve were experiencing firsthand how terrible and soul-crushing it was to fall into sin, and how wrong it is to disobey God--not because they learned right from wrong through sin. In fact, Adam and Eve knew good and evil even better than we do now, because their perception was not marred by sin!

Yes, Adam and Eve already knew right from wrong because God informed them "do not eat of that tree, for the day you do, you shall die"< that makes them KNOW right from wrong. It makes them know why it's wrong "you will die". But, in their case, they wanted to find out for themselves, so they go and eat the fruit. They find out by experience that it's wrong now, they don't find out through information. In this case, it would have been best to find out just through information, not through experience. But in the case of self induced OBE's it's not the same, your comparing apples to oranges, their's no comparison. Because in Adams and eves case we have recorded a direct command not to eat this fruit, in the case of self induced OBE's we don't have a direct command against it. Secondly, i believe this fruit was a drug, drugs, espeasally certain kinds are very harmful to the body, and God does not want us to harm the temple, the body. But self induced OBE's don't "harm" the body. They don't even harm the soul. Also your not comming to knowledge through sin, it's not a sin to self induce an OBE, if it was a sin, then anytime God made someone have an OBE, he would thus be making them sin, and that makes no sense, right? It's equivelant to saying God making adam and eve eat the fruit, so now it's not a sin to eat the fruit, just as long as God makes them do it, but that's silly. If God makes anything happen, then we know it's not a sin period. So, we know OBE's are not sinful.

So you can see why I make the connection between self-induced OBE's and Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit. In both cases, people are going off and doing their own thing. In both cases, people aren't submitting to God. In both cases, people think they can gain something (either godlike status or whatever else) without God granting it.

By your definition of "going off and doing our own thing" and "self inducing OBE's" it sounds like the act of the will. Ok, well Adam and eve by the act of their will, they refuse to not eat the fruit, ok, that means they are off doing their own thing and self inducing this with their own will, that God gave them. That definition makes ZERO sense, because God gave us a will to exercise with freedom.

 

[Jollybear]

This actually comes from the fact that pharmaceuticals and medicine-making in those days was believed to be a magical work, or something connected with the doctor's/medicine-maker's religion.

Ok, i'll go with that, don't have a problem with that.

Without God bringing us there, it would never even happen.

If your born of God, and your working WITH God, and praising God, and calling on God and being aware of God, and then asking God as your already out of your body if you have permission to to enter the gates, i'm sure, he would let you in to visit. Also i know someone who told me he self induced an OBE and he did travel to heaven, i knew this guy in person, now was he lying to me? I highly doubt it. He said he also traveled to hell.

Only if we cooperate with God's grace to ensure that such would not be the case.

All you have to do for that is to turn on the news. No need to have an OBE for that.

I don't trust the news, the information we get from the news is very filtered and they only tell you what they want you to know. They don't tell you everything. And on top of it, they don't know everything in order to tell it. The press is not allowed into the bildeberg meeting or area 51, some things are top secret. Plus, the media is controlled by the illuminati (no, i don't want to debate about the illuminati if you don't believe in them, that would be a HUGE rabit trail). But you get the point, some things are secret, OBE's could extract secret knowledge. Forget the news. That's useless.

Trust in reality of spirit world=/=trust in God.

Doubt of what?

Clear doubts about the spirit world, after life, God, spiritual things, expell those doubts that we have a soul. All of those things.

GOD wants to bring us into knowledge and wisdom. Notice what you said there carefully. The only true way to gain knowledge and wisdom is to gain it from God.

So, if you gained knowledge from God and then passed it on to me, i gaus what you would have passed onto me is no longer knowledge from God? Or if God gives me knowledge of the spirit world, ok it's knowledge, but if i gain the same knowledge of the spirit world by going into that world, then it's not knowledge anymore, because God did not give me it? Or if i gain knowledge from a home improvement book on how to do plumbing, i gauss that is not knowledge on how to do plumbing because God did not directly give me that knowledge, therefore it's not knowledge? Your point is foolish. And even scripture says your wrong. It says in the psalms "how great is your handy work O Lord, day by day your creation pours forth KNOWLEDGE" did you forget that part of the quote? God is not the only one that pours forth knowledge, his creation does too.

God put our souls in our bodies, and He reserves the right to take them back out. That's no issue. God reserving that right is not the same as us reserving that right.

So, with that line of logic, God also reserves the right to make me pray and not make me pray, God reserves the right to make me fast or not, unless he does these things, i have no right to do them. He has the right to make me obey him or not, if he does not cause it, i have no right to obey him. Basically i have no right to exercise the freedom of my will that God created me to have and use unless God makes me into this controlled robot.

Again, how do you not see the gargantuan difference between God giving us OBE's, and we ourselves causing them/

Look at Genesis 11 again:

“Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”

Here we see people attempting to exalt themselves through their own efforts. The people literally said that they wanted to build their tower so that it would reach Heaven, i.e. humanity would come to be equal with God.

Rebelion, disobedience and indifference to God, yes.

Right, so if their motives were right, then it would have been good.

I'd like to see this one.

I'll get the post about witchraft later for another post.

God doesn't want us to fly to places in OBE's. He wants us to do good works, commune with Him, and help redeem the world. Us inducing OBE's serves no role in that, and is no help.

If God does not want us to fly to places in OBE's why did he cause them sometimes with people? So that means they can be used for good works, communing with him, and to help the world. Yes, they can.

 

[Shiranui117]

If your born of God, and your working WITH God, and praising God, and calling on God and being aware of God, and then asking God as your already out of your body if you have permission to to enter the gates, i'm sure, he would let you in to visit. Also i know someone who told me he self induced an OBE and he did travel to heaven, i knew this guy in person, now was he lying to me? I highly doubt it. He said he also traveled to hell.

Conjecture does not a solid argument make.

I don't trust the news, the information we get from the news is very filtered and they only tell you what they want you to know. They don't tell you everything. And on top of it, they don't know everything in order to tell it. The press is not allowed into the bildeberg meeting or area 51, some things are top secret. Plus, the media is controlled by the illuminati (no, i don't want to debate about the illuminati if you don't believe in them, that would be a HUGE rabit trail). But you get the point, some things are secret, OBE's could extract secret knowledge. Forget the news. That's useless.

You said you wanted to "expose the fruitless deeds of darkness in DETAIL", did you not? No need to have an OBE for that. Turn on the news and see how much senseless killing, abuse and hatred goes on in the world. I don't frankly care who controls the media, that's besides the point. My point was, if you want to see the "fruitless deeds of darkness exposed", just watch the news and see how much the world is convulsing because of sin. If the Illuminati do in fact control the media (which I don't take seriously for a second, but I'll play along), they sure don't hide stories of murders, abductions, rapes, theft, abuse and war. You want to see "fruitless deeds of darkness"? There you go. Heck, it's not hard to find media sources that airs things not shown by the mainstream.

Clear doubts about the spirit world, after life, God, spiritual things, expell those doubts that we have a soul. All of those things.

Again, OBE's are not necessary for that. A true prayer open to God, an encounter with Him, is more than enough to dispel all of that. An OBE is no evidence of God, and those who routinely self-induce them may never even find God.

So, if you gained knowledge from God and then passed it on to me, i gaus what you would have passed onto me is no longer knowledge from God? Or if God gives me knowledge of the spirit world, ok it's knowledge, but if i gain the same knowledge of the spirit world by going into that world, then it's not knowledge anymore, because God did not give me it?

Don't look at me, look at what you yourself said. You tell me.

Your point is foolish. And even scripture says your wrong. It says in the psalms "how great is your handy work O Lord, day by day your creation pours forth KNOWLEDGE" did you forget that part of the quote? God is not the only one that pours forth knowledge, his creation does too.

Learning about God through His creation (when God created all things to tell us about Himself) is a far cry from dabbling in such spiritually dangerous and fruitless exercises as OBE's. If you wish to make the foundation of your faith and spiritual life on your own works, that's your call.

So, with that line of logic, God also reserves the right to make me pray and not make me pray, God reserves the right to make me fast or not, unless he does these things, i have no right to do them. He has the right to make me obey him or not, if he does not cause it, i have no right to obey him. Basically i have no right to exercise the freedom of my will that God created me to have and use unless God makes me into this controlled robot.

What do you not understand about God letting us use a hammer, but keeping us away from the powertools? Calling upon God and talking with Him is different from tearing your soul out of your body. Stop and think about these ridiculous comparisons you're making. They really are getting absurd.

If I keep you away from holding a loaded shotgun with the safety off and say that you're not allowed to so much as touch it, that doesn't mean I'm going to forbid you from having a water gun to play with. The dangerous loaded shotgun is an OBE. The water gun is prayer. There is never harm in talking to God. But, if God reserves the authority to give OBE's to people on rare circumstances, then that is His prerogative. We have instructions to pray without ceasing. Never, not once in the entire Bible, did God tell anyone to go and have an OBE, or say it was okay to have them. And you are completely unable to give any proof of God condoning our recreational use of having OBE's. If you did, then you would have provided it a long time ago. As it is, your support for having OBE's is the same kind of support that the serpent gave to Eve for eating the forbidden fruit. Your entire argument boils down to "What harm could it do?"

Right, so if their motives were right, then it would have been good.

Not necessarily. The action itself was born out of bad motives. Sin with a good intention is still sin. There's no excusing it.

If God does not want us to fly to places in OBE's why did he cause them sometimes with people?

Note what you said: Sometimes, in extreme circumstances. More often than not they were also near-death experiences. That should tell you something about OBE's. They aren't recreational things that happen everyday. They aren't things that we do for funsies. They occur in extreme situations, and what happens is almost always directed by God. If they go to Heaven, it is because God brought them there. If they go to Hell, it is because God brought them there. God directs the experience of an OBE. How we react is our choice, but God directs it. He doesn't let us wander around willy-nilly. There's no flying up trillions of miles into the far reaches of the galaxy because we want to.

So that means they can be used for good works, communing with him, and to help the world. Yes, they can.

How? How does recreational use of OBE's strengthen us spiritually? They give absolutely no benefit to our prayer life. There are no advantages to praying during an OBE versus praying with our body and soul intact. Even you have admitted to this.