At Cornell (Finally) A Stand for Academic Freedom and Against Wokeness

[Twilight Hue]

Why would a person with PTSD be reading about a girl in the Korean War anyways?

 

[PureX]

Yes, I agree. What better way to alert a student to discuss the material with their professor than a note about it in the syllabus?

Which notes? How many possible emotional triggers do you suppose there could be in any given book?

Also, a student skipping over a passage in a book isn't likely to ruin their grade for the class. If the professor is requiring the student to read that single passage or fail, that professor needs their own psychological service.

Skipping assigned content is a very bad president to assume. One that should only be negotiated on an individual case by case basis.

I think we really need to stop letting the politicians and the students run the schools. Everyone should have their say, but in the end, the professionals have to be able to do their jobs or the whole endeavor is pointless

 

[Father Heathen]

It's a good way of saying and sending the message to finally , "grow up".

College is definitely not for 18-22 year old immature children.

Yet you support a party that's on a mission to ban books they disagree with, and it's not even about trauma, just butthurt.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yet you support a party that's on a mission to ban books they disagree with, and it's not even about trauma, just butthurt.

False equivalency.

Show me, any post I ever made, where I support book banning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why would a person with PTSD be reading about a girl in the Korean War anyways?

In this situation, it would be because it's required reading for their course.

 

[PureX]

It also seems like those that would avoid the material have already been directly exposed to the content through real experiences of violence.

Something easily determined by a discussion between student and professor.

All this silly political interference is unnecessary and harmful to the overall purpose of the college. The student already has professional help available to her, and a means of avoiding the material if it's necessary and appropriate. No one else has any business imposing their 'solutions'. The system was not broken. The student was. So fix the student, not the system. It's that simple.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

... to challenge biases. Not to trigger mental health crises unnecessarily.
...

Yeah, but for some works of line, you can't have some people with mental health issues doing the job.
So depending on what is been taught in regards to some jobs, if someone can't handle that, then they can't have the job.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Meh...I don't think you can compare trigger warnings to wheelchair ramps. Not fairly, anyway.

Proceed with caution: the trouble with trigger warnings

Trigger warnings are increasingly ubiquitous but recent research finds they are ineffective, and possibly harmful, if used in a tokenistic way.

theconversation.com

What's the issue?

 

[Twilight Hue]

In this situation, it would be because it's required reading for their course.

Well I don't know about you, but I would think if your studying the Korean War, there's going to be incidents like rape in it simply through common sense that terrible things happen to people during war.

Was she expecting a whitewashed cleaned up version in a college setting and it completely caught her off guard ?

 

[Twilight Hue]

In this situation, it would be because it's required reading for their course.

I'd say it's the wrong course for her and should be dropped soonest.

 

[VoidCat]

What's the issue?

According to the article trigger warning may be harmful depending on how they used. Im guessing that's the issue @lewisnotmiller is referring to. Of course according to the article they can be helpful but not if used in a tokenistic way.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What's the issue?

One helps the person with the disability, jury is most definitely out with the other.
Also, the idea of undiagnosed PTSD, referred to in the brief, is a little different to people in wheelchairs.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Something easily determined by a discussion between student and professor.

So your way to allow someone with PTSD from being sexually assaulted to avoid having to engage with sexual assault in their curriculum is to have them engage with sexual assault in front of their professor?

Is your cruelty accidental or intentional?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So your way to allow someone with PTSD from being sexually assaulted to avoid having to engage with sexual assault in their curriculum is to have them engage with sexual assault in front of their professor?

Is your cruelty accidental or intentional?

Yeah, I get it. Do you get that it can have a limit in another sense?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

According to the article trigger warning may be harmful depending on how they used. Im guessing that's the issue @lewisnotmiller is referring to. Of course according to the article they can be helpful but not if used in a tokenistic way.

I skimmed the first bit of article. I saw a bunch of stuff about the effect of trigger warnings on the general population, which I think completely misses the point.

Strobing effects in movies are no big deal for the vast majority of people... but they can be a big problem for susceptible epileptics. Loud bangs from fireworks are no big deal for the vast majority of people, but they can be a big problem for people with combat-related PTSD.

Same thing for trigger warnings. I'm sure there are some curb cut effects associated with them that improve things in a small way for the general population, but they aren't for the general population; they're for people with specific mental health conditions who could be very negatively impacted by the triggering thing.

Some people joke about "triggering" and trigger warnings, but it's serious business for many people.

 

[metis]

Finally, Cornell shows some spine at the wave of wokeness and "cancellation" of rival points of view. Should College Come With Trigger Warnings? At Cornell, It’s a ‘Hard No.’




Cornell's administration vetoed the Student resolution to require "trigger warnings" stating: "“We cannot accept this resolution as the actions it recommends would infringe on our core commitment to academic freedom and freedom of inquiry, and are at odds with the goals of a Cornell education,” Ms. Pollack wrote in a letter with the university provost, Michael I. Kotlikoff." My impression was that college students were expected to either be mature late adolescents or on their way to maturity. People who are mature or maturing need to learn to "roll with the punches" as long as those punches are verbal and not actual violence. To quote Justice Brandeis, in his concurring opinion in Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1926) (link):

I agree heartily with Justice Brandeis. 18-22 year olds should not need to be protected from hurtful literature. Does this mean "anything goes?" Well, I suppose that courses based on literature that is pure hate, such as Hitler's Mein Kampf would have few takers. I agree that those courses should be elective, not required. I could see a pre-display of intended reading matter, not "trigger warnings."
Three years ago, Cornell was on the wrong track. Cornell's President posted and blasted the following message (link), excerpt below:

As an alumnus, Cornell 1979 and my father (Cornell Engineering 1947), I responded, in part, as follows:

Just as Cornell did not put its knee of George Floyd's neck, Cornell is not a continuation of First Grade. I am proud that my Alma Mater is finally taking a stand. It is very much in the tradition of Cornell always being co-ed since founding, and always being open to people of color.

I frankly don't see how this negates or goes against being "woke". The term actually applies to being informed of past histories of injustice and oppression.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One helps the person with the disability, jury is most definitely out with the other.
Also, the idea of undiagnosed PTSD, referred to in the brief, is a little different to people in wheelchairs.

I'm not even talking about undiagnosed medical conditions yet.

In a first-year class of, say, 100 people, how many students do you think will have a diagnosed mental health condition that needs some sort of accommodation?

... and then think about how the same course could could have 3 or 4 separate classes in one term, and then be offered twice a year. That's like 600-800 people a year just for one course... but people like @PureX argue that it isn't worth the prof's time to identify which content warnings - from a standard list the school develops - apply to reading material they ought to already be very familiar with.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I skimmed the first bit of article. I saw a bunch of stuff about the effect of trigger warnings on the general population, which I think completely misses the point.

Strobing effects in movies are no big deal for the vast majority of people... but they can be a big problem for susceptible epileptics. Loud bangs from fireworks are no big deal for the vast majority of people, but they can be a big problem for people with combat-related PTSD.

Same thing for trigger warnings. I'm sure there are some curb cut effects associated with them that improve things in a small way for the general population, but they aren't for the general population; they're for people with specific mental health conditions who could be very negatively impacted by the triggering thing.

Some people joke about "triggering" and trigger warnings, but it's serious business for many people.

Yeah, I have mine as I am one of those. But there is still 2 sides to that matter and not just one.

 

[VoidCat]

I skimmed the first bit of article. I saw a bunch of stuff about the effect of trigger warnings on the general population, which I think completely misses the point.

Strobing effects in movies are no big deal for the vast majority of people... but they can be a big problem for susceptible epileptics. Loud bangs from fireworks are no big deal for the vast majority of people, but they can be a big problem for people with combat-related PTSD.

Same thing for trigger warnings. I'm sure there are some curb cut effects associated with them that improve things in a small way for the general population, but they aren't for the general population; they're for people with specific mental health conditions who could be very negatively impacted by the triggering thing.

Some people joke about "triggering" and trigger warnings, but it's serious business for many people.

Oh i support the use of trigger warnings use them myself.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Oh i support the use of trigger warnings use them myself.

Yes, but do you see a limit in regards to handicaps and line of work?