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Atheism: A belief?
- Thread starter Orias
- Start date
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
When bananas are green it generally means they're not ripe yet.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
No one is claiming that you can infer that from the information. What you can infer that from is the fact that someone who doesn't believe in gods fits the definition of "atheist". You can also see it in the usage of some native English speakers.
No, it's not. No one is generalizing usage here. We're saying it doesn't have to include the negative belief about gods because, by definition, it doesn't have to, and many people use it the way we do. Also, you have never given a good reason not to use it that way.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I wouldn't say atheism is sometimes a belief. I would say it sometimes includes the belief "Gods don't exist".
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Because something is either a belief or not. It's incorrect to say that atheism, in general, is a belief, so that leaves one option.
It's equally incorrect to say that atheism, in general, is not a belief. So that leaves no option.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Atheism, in general, or broadly, isn't a belief - it's an absence of belief.
My dictionary says that "ism" also means "state, condition or quality".
I know these words work with my definition for "ism"; do they work for yours?
- Malapropism
- Criticism
- Gigantism
- Alcoholism
There are many "isms" that don't require the subject to positively accept them.
Except, of course, when it broadly isn't.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Indeed, as in the case of people not understanding what broadly means.
That is a false dichotomy. There is a third option: when speaking of atheism in general, you can not claim that it is either a belief or not a belief.
Like mball's vehicle example: Some vehicles have gas engines. Some vehicles do not have gas engines. You can neither say that (all) vehicles have gas engines, nor can you say that (all) vehicles do not have gas engines.
What do you call the belief "Gods don't exist"?
Actually, you can. The two possibilities are mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive.
Given that, you can say that a gas engine is not required for a thing to be a vehicle.
Just pointing out that this statement is a bit circular. You are using your form of the definition of atheism to prove that the definition of atheism does not require the negative belief. Your whole debate with Copernicus is whether your definition is valid or not.
If I have a bunch of balloons, some of which are red, but the majority of which are different colors, can I claim that the balloons are not red? Can I claim that the balloons are red?
I can make neither claim about the balloons as a whole.
Precisely. That has been my preferential phrasing all along: Atheism is not necessarily a belief.9-10ths_Penguin said:
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Atheism in general, or broadly speaking, is the absence of belief in the existence of gods. This applies to all atheists. Atheism, broadly speaking, isn't a belief, it's an absence of belief.
Specific cases or subsets of atheism may have additional components which are beliefs, but that is atheism specific to those subsets, not atheism in general.
Again, I ask, can you make a statement about the general set that is false for a subset? That sounds like a basic logical fail.
1. B is a subset of A.
2. B has component X
3. A does not have component X
Therefore: Does not compute. Either 1 or 3 must be false.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
It isn't false for the subset. Atheism, broadly speaking, is not a belief - it is the absence of belief in the existence of god. This applies to all atheists - it is a true, general statement about atheism.
When you talk about atheists who believe that god doesn't exist, you're no longer talking about atheism in general. You've created a new, distinct set.
Or in the case of people's whose broadly is much less broad than others' broadly.
Actually, the possibility of not making a claim always exists.