Songbird
She rules her life like a bird in flight
Well, I'm not sure what I am. Part of me is, part of me isn't. I'm having an intra-schism. You're invited.
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Atheism: A belief?
- Thread starter Orias
- Start date
Well, I'm not sure what I am. Part of me is, part of me isn't. I'm having an intra-schism. You're invited.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
It's not? What belief other than "God exists" could I be referring to?
No, atheism is not a belief. It can contain beliefs, but it itself is not a belief.
Right, so saying atheism is not a belief is correct because it includes all atheists.
This has been like this for ever. They have no belief of no belief of no belief ....................
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Sounds kinky. I'm in.
It's the little plus button next to the quote button on each post.
Songbird
She rules her life like a bird in flight
That part I knew, but I didn't know what to do after clicking the plus button.
Yeah, baby! I'm multi-quoting all over the place now!
What is the first rebuttal you get from a theist when you say "Atheism is not a belief"?
You will have someone say "Hey! Isn't atheism the belief that gods don't exist? That's a belief, ain't it?".
By which I infer that it is not clear when you are saying "Atheism is not a belief" that you are only stating that "atheism is not a belief that god exists". It also seems to be saying "atheism is not a belief that gods do not exist."
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I'm saying neither when I say "atheism is not a belief". I'm saying the thing, "atheism", is not a belief. When I say it is the lack of a belief, I'm saying it's the lack of the belief "God(s) exist".
You have to define which belief for it to be meaningful. "A belief" could be "any belief". Are you saying that "atheism is not any belief"?
What is comes down to is that I do not believe that to be an accurate portrayal, since some forms of atheism include an atheistic belief, and as such, it comes across as misleading (and if I were a theist having a debate with you, dishonest).
They don't even believe in no belief? That's so sad... :sad:
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
If atheism were a belief, then there would be a belief specific to atheists that applied to all atheists.
No one has been able to describe such a belief without limiting atheism to only strong atheists. The absence of such a belief is why atheism isn't a belief.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Simply put, atheism is just another "ism". According to Wordnet, "ism" is a noun that means:
a belief (or system of beliefs) accepted as authoritative by some group or school
In the case of atheism it is normally understood to mean rejection of the belief that gods exist. One could infer from that that all atheists lack belief in gods, not that people who lack belief in gods are ipso facto atheists. However, there are a number of people in this religion debate forum who want to deny that atheists must have a negative belief about gods, which is simply an incorrect generalization about ordinary English usage.
a belief (or system of beliefs) accepted as authoritative by some group or school
In the case of atheism it is normally understood to mean rejection of the belief that gods exist. One could infer from that that all atheists lack belief in gods, not that people who lack belief in gods are ipso facto atheists. However, there are a number of people in this religion debate forum who want to deny that atheists must have a negative belief about gods, which is simply an incorrect generalization about ordinary English usage.
Because it's not like atheism is a thing apart from atheists.
That's why you can't say that "Atheism is a belief". (Well, if you were talking about atheism in general.)
1) Is Strong Atheism a subset of atheism?Kilgore Trout said:
2) Can you say that atheism does not have a characteristic when a particuar subset does have that characteristic?
The presence of a belief (in strong atheism) is also why you cannot say that atheism isn't a belief (unless you are referring specifically to those who lack the belief that gods do not exist.)
And why you can't say atheism is not a belief.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Right - without specification, the general is assumed.
You can say that atheism can be a belief. This, of course, is very different from saying atheism is a belief. Obviously if one specifies that they believe god doesn't exist, then atheism is a belief for them, but this doesn't make atheism, in general, a belief.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I'm sorry, now you're losing me. I thought "Atheism is not a belief" was clear, just as "a horse is not a bottle" would be.
OK, but that's the best way to talk about atheism generally, so it's neither misleading nor dishonest.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Well, I'll just keep using it as I ordinarily encounter it in usage. But, good luck with trying to get the whole world to fit in your neat, little mental boxes.
So, why do you think that you can say, in general, that atheism is not a belief?