Atheism and arrogance

[Cooky]

I think it is always wrong to equate ideologies such as communism as merely "atheist." They are not, really. In China and North Korea, for example they are the only "political" parties, and brook no opposition. Their leaders are not elected (except possibly by a few inner members), and once they assume leadership, they are as infallible as the Pope. No opposition is brooked, and no other loyalties. Opposition leads to excommunication (in North Korea, excommunication happens at the business end of a cannon), and other claims on the minds of people are frowned upon, and worse. Think, for example, how well the Uygurs and Falun Gong are faring in China, and they are not political, or so they say.

No, such regimes are just as much "religions" as are Falun Gong and Buddhism -- not requiring a God, but with creeds and mandatory beliefs non-the-less. The theocracies of Saudi Arabia and Iran are not particularly worse than China, just because they have a God in the mix.

Now look at the United States, Canada, Britain and other such nations, with parliaments, official oppositions, and parties made up of every religion, gender and sort of person in those nations. They make no claims on the "souls" of men, only trying to earn their vote periodically -- and once achieving power, at least in part acting so as to get those votes again next time (and a next time is always mandatory).

Thank you for your patient tone and your enlightening engagement. I'll take time to ponder on your comments, thanks very much.

 

[ChristineM]

You're making me feel very uncomfortable. But no, I'm attempting to learn by engaging in dialogue. Are you willing to take part?

I gave up banging my head on a wall many years ago.

So you are saying that you don't have any evidence to show your statement is valid, fair enough.

 

[columbus]

Then why aren't atheists judged by their behaviour? When they misbehave, the reaction is usually as though they were not part of any group even though their ethical position is quite monolithic.

There is no "monolithic atheist ethical position".

The only belief atheists hold in common is "Religion is fiction", if even that. Nothing about ethics.

Personally, I'm a pretty strong Prolifer. From elective abortions to environmental damage, I oppose people choosing death for other people. Not all atheists agree on this.

And I'm convinced that a marriage is a solid enhancement for the adult life of competent people, whether normal or queer. Not all atheists agree on this.

I think Trump's history of self centered deceit and legal violence makes him an appalling choice for President of the USA. Not all atheists agree on this.

There isn't any ethical code that atheists adhere to because atheism isn't a theological ideology, it's the lack of having such an ideology.
Tom

 

[Trailblazer]

...Or will you admit that there are different types of atheists, and some are down right horrid individuals while others not so much so.

But the same can be said of believers.
The only difference between atheists and believers is that believers believe in God and atheists do not believe in God.
Character and behavior is specific to the individual.

 

[Trailblazer]

How about the arrogance of the atheists among the Chinese communist party, or in North Korea?

Imo, it is unfair to compare a political position with individual people.

 

[McBell]

Your posts have not enlightened me at all in any way.

I am not the least bit surprised.
As I already said, you have presented yourself as someone with an ax to grind.
Not someone wanting or even willing to learn.

 

[Cooky]

I am not the least bit surprised.
As I already said, you have presented yourself as someone with an ax to grind.
Not someone wanting or even willing to learn.

You say that because you know exactly who I am, not because of what I've said. Otherwise you would have singled out, within my posts, what it is you're referring to.

But maybe I actually do have an axe to grind... And maybe it's a well deserved grinding.

In any case, the chopping is complete now as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Trailblazer]

You say that because you know exactly who I am, not because of what I've said.

According to my beliefs, nobody knows another person "better" than they know themselves, and certainly not from what they have said on a forum. All we can have is an opinion of someone else, but we can always be wrong.
I stand by this quote and I post it often.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

You "seem" like a just and fair-minded person, from what I have seen you post, but I would never claim I know you or your motives. That would be the epitome of arrogance on my part. If I want to know your motives, I would ask you and believe what you tell me. To "not" believe you is saying I think you are either a liar or I know more about you than you do, and that would make me very arrogant. I have been around this block more than once on another forum, with a forum owner insisting he knew my motives. That is one reason I ended up on this forum where the staff is fair and just. Imo, there is nothing more important than justice, not even love.

 

[Cooky]

According to my beliefs, nobody knows another person "better" than they know themselves, and certainly not from what they have said on a forum. All we can have is an opinion of someone else, but we can always be wrong.
I stand by this quote and I post it often.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

You "seem" like a just and fair-minded person, from what I have seen you post, but I would never claim I know you or your motives. That would be the epitome of arrogance on my part. If I want to know your motives, I would ask you and believe what you tell me. To "not" believe you is saying I think you are either a liar or I know more about you than you do, and that would make me very arrogant. I have been around this block more than once on another forum, with a forum owner insisting he knew my motives. That is one reason I ended up on this forum where the staff is fair and just. Imo, there is nothing more important than justice, not even love.

Your posts are respectful and kind. And regardless of any views or beliefs, I consider you a friend.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm talking about the original football, I believe you on the Trump side of the pond call it soccer

*Staggers, clutching at his pearls...*

Trump...side...

I'm an Aussie. Can't you tell by my rugged good looks??

 

[Trailblazer]

Your posts are respectful and kind. And regardless of any views or beliefs, I consider you a friend.

Thanks, I feel the same way about you.

I never allow beliefs to get in the way of friendships. I like atheists as much as believers and most of my forum friends are atheists, although a couple of them became believers since I met them many years ago.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's just your opinion.

It's not.

It's not like you can prove it.

I can. I am an atheist and my reason for being an atheist is not what you claim it is.
Your generalization is debunked because of that.

Having said that... I have no obligation whatsoever to "prove" anything. For the simple reason that you didn't bother to support your own claim.

And as the Hitch once said: What is asserted without evidence, can be dissmissed without evidence.

However, you could easily prove it to yourself.
You could create a thread for atheists only and put a poll in it asking them why they are atheists and make your claim one of the options and then see how many of the participants agree with you.

My money is on "none".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How about the arrogance of the atheists among the Chinese communist party, or in North Korea? Since you've taken the topic personally, you must obviously consider yourself in communion with those prominantly atheist regimes.

You mean communist regimes.

There's no such thing as an "atheist regime", just like there is no such thing as the "federation of non-football players".

...Or will you admit that there are different types of atheists, and some are down right horrid individuals while others not so much so.

The thing is that none of the "horrid" or "nice" attributes of atheists are dependend on, or motivated by, their atheism.

Simply because atheism is not a doctrine. Atheism is a single position on a single issue. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

School me. Please. I'm begging for it.

Communist societies like North Korea typical demand state / dictator worship from their citizens. The state and the dictator has to come first at all times.

In such a society, religion is a threat. Theists tend to put their god before everything. If their religion doesn't agree with communist policies, then they will go with what the religion says. This is a thing that a communist dictator can not tolerate.

As for North Korea, are you aware of the stuff that citizens are expected to believe about Kim and his family? Maybe you should look into that. You'ld be amazed. They basicly are attributed supernatural powers.

In a very very real way, such communism is like a state religion.
So if these guys go after theistic religions, it is in essence not different from ISIS guys going after rivaling theistic religions.

None of what such communists do, is motivated by their atheism. Instead, it is motivated by communist ideology and a hunger for power. None of which have anything to do with atheism.

 

[Piculet]

However

What makes you think atheists know why they're atheists?

 

[Piculet]

There's no such thing as an "atheist regime", just like there is no such thing as the "federation of non-football players".

Western governments as well as the Chinese government are certainly run on atheist ideologies. The only reason you don't want that to be brought to attention is that it would give you less space to escape from accusations by claiming that all atheists are different.

 

[Mock Turtle]

What makes you think atheists know why they're atheists?

What makes you think they don't?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Western governments as well as the Chinese government are certainly run on atheist ideologies. The only reason you don't want that to be brought to attention is that it would give you less space to escape from accusations by claiming that all atheists are different.

Please expound on what is 'atheist ideology'.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What makes you think atheists know why they're atheists?

Ignoring the stupidity of that question and humoring you on it...

What makes YOU think you know better then me why I believe or don't believe stuff?
Are you so proficient at mind reading that you're even able to read thoughts that I don't even know I'm having?





So to answer the stupid question: the same way you know why you don't believe in leprechauns hiding pots of gold at the base of a rainbow: there isn't a single valid reason to assume there is any truth to it.

In fact, I don't require reasons to not believe something.
Instead, I require reasons to believe something. When such reasons are not available, or the ones offered are inadequate / invalid / insufficient... then that, in and of itself, is "the reason" why I don't believe it. Nonbelief is a thing I default to concerning claims that haven't met their burden of proof.

You do that too in likely most other area's of your life that isn't concerning your religion.

When a guy comes upto you claiming he was abducted and sodomized by aliens last night, likely you not believe it. Not because you have evidence against it, but rather because there is no valid evidence in support of it. There's no rational reason to believe, so... you don't. And that in and of itself, would be "the reason" why you don't believe it. You simply default to non-belief when there is no valid reason to believe.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Western governments as well as the Chinese government are certainly run on atheist ideologies

There is no such thing as "atheist ideologies", or not in any meaningfull way, at least.

First, western governmenst are secular, which means that people are free to believe whatever they wish to believe in terms of religions. It means that government will not meddle in those beliefs and religious practices, as long as they don't breach the secular law. For example, a religion that requires ritual human sacrifice wouldn't be allowed to actually engage in that ritual - not even if the sacrificed is a volunteer that actuall wishes to be sacrificed.

Secondly, communism as implemented by the soviets and by extension to most other communist states, is more like a state religion in itself, where god is merely replaced by the dictator. This takes on quite extreme forms in North Korea, where "The Great Leader" is even attributed supernatural powers. This is, technically at least, more anti-theistic then anything else. But only for the reason that the "state religion" it is replaced by doesn't include theistic things. Other then that, it is extremely similar to religious beliefs, incl the demand of worship (of the dictator and / or state).

If you think that "too much" sceptical thinking and rational reasoning, is what is wrong with North Korea then you are quite clueless about what such communism in practice really is all about.

The only reason you don't want that to be brought to attention is that it would give you less space to escape from accusations by claiming that all atheists are different.

There's nothing to bring to anyone's attention here, because you are completely ignoring the actual problem in communism and what the real reason is why they tend to be anti-theistic.

You are also falsely trying to draw a connection between mere atheism (a single position on a single specific point) on the one hand, and political ideology on the other. There is no connection at all between the two.

If somebody says they are atheist, then you only know that they don't follow a religion and don't believe the claim that god(s) exist. You are utterly clueless about what that person's political outlook is. Because an atheist person's political view will necessarily be informed by other things. Atheism doesn't inform anything, because it isn't anything. It's just a label to describe what somebody is NOT.

When somebody is a theist, then that person's worldview WILL be informed by that religion. Because that religion makes all kind of claims about the nature of the world, the nature of humans and what humans are suppposed to do and not do.

Atheism has no such inherent doctrines to inform anything at all. So whatever informs an atheist, will be from a source completely independend from their atheism. Necessarily.


The sooner you understand this, the better.