atheism has to face the fact that it's agnostic

[Desert Snake]

Atheism, as a 'disbelief', is great, but it's also necessarily agnostic. An atheist is still in belief/disbelief choice, without knowing for sure.


every atheist is an agnostic.

cheers.

 

[Sunstone]

Yup, depending on how you define your terms, of course. If you define agnosticism as a matter of not knowing, and atheism as a matter of disbelief, then you would seem to be on more or less solid ground. Especially if you can demonstrate that knowing is impossible.

On the other hand, if you define agnosticism as a refusal to either believe or disbelieve, as many people are wont to do, then your thesis makes much less sense.

So, is there anything here that is new or unusual?

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't know how surefire that is, although it makes sense on paper.

On practice, though, atheism often overrules agnosticism, and perhaps it should.

 

[kashmir]

Depends on the person.
Some are open to the notion of deities, and some have slammed that door shut, locked it and threw away the key and that's that.

 

[Bunyip]

Atheism, as a 'disbelief', is great, but it's also necessarily agnostic. An atheist is still in belief/disbelief choice, without knowing for sure.


every atheist is an agnostic.

cheers.

Sure, most atheists are agnostic. I like many other atheists identify myself as an agnostic atheist.

 

[Desert Snake]

I don't know how surefire that is, although it makes sense on paper.

On practice, though, atheism often overrules agnosticism, and perhaps it should.

Well, I'm not totally sure what you mean, however, you don't have to add 'agnostic' to the atheist label.....atheist on it's own is still a term/definition/

The implication of this is actually that agnostic is also a straight definition, by default, a sentiment that many seem to struggle understanding.
a.atheism=disbelief(don't know)
b.agnostic=don't know(neither believe nor disbelieve)

 

[illykitty]

I'd imagine it's the case with most. I mean how can you be 100% sure they don't exist? There's no (material) evidence so it just makes sense to not be sure either way.

I'm an agnostic theist - I rely on my intuition and philosophy. An atheist relies on logic. It's just different modes of thinking, I suppose, but we have agnosticism in common.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'd imagine it's the case with most. I mean how can you be 100% sure they don't exist? There's no (material) evidence so it just makes sense to not be sure either way.

I'm an agnostic theist - I rely on my intuition and philosophy. An atheist relies on logic. It's just different modes of thinking, I suppose, but we have agnosticism in common.

That's another thing, I don't really think you have to put 'agnostic' before theist, even if unsure, I mean, you sure can, but is it really saying anything more about what you believe than straight 'theist'??

 

[Sunstone]

That's another thing, I don't really think you have to put 'agnostic' before theist, even if unsure, I mean, you sure can, but is it really saying anything more about what you believe than straight 'theist'??

Are you purposely trying to ask a trick question?

 

[Bunyip]

I'd imagine it's the case with most. I mean how can you be 100% sure they don't exist? There's no (material) evidence so it just makes sense to not be sure either way.

I'm an agnostic theist - I rely on my intuition and philosophy. An atheist relies on logic. It's just different modes of thinking, I suppose, but we have agnosticism in common.

That's another thing, I don't really think you have to put 'agnostic' before theist, even if unsure, I mean, you sure can, but is it really saying anything more about what you believe than straight 'theist'??

The point is that your argument works both ways - just as you say atheism is agnostic, so is theism.

It does not really say any more about what you believe in either case.

 

[Desert Snake]

Are you purposely trying to ask a trick question?

That wasn't a question, more like a rhetorical question.


How did you read that?

 

[illykitty]

That's another thing, I don't really think you have to put 'agnostic' before theist, even if unsure, I mean, you sure can, but is it really saying anything more about what you believe than straight 'theist'??

Some theists claim to be gnostic - to know there's god(s). I claim that I don't know 100%. It shows the intensity of the belief.

There's perhaps far fewer atheists who claim gnosticism but I've seen it before. IIRC there's one member on RF, can't remember their username, has that as their religion or title.

So... Where does this leave us? As Bunyip said, I say it goes either way.

 

[kashmir]

Lets face it, in today's world, its politically correct to make your own definitions of the title you claim.
No point to tell anyone they are wrong to choose a title of choice.
I cant think of one, soz due to issues, did the bestest I could

 

[cottage]

Here is my not entirely tongue-in-cheek view of agnosticism:


In the Debating Hall today: Theism v Atheism.

The Chairman declares the meeting open:

‘Ladies and gentlemen may I introduce the group on my left, those who are here to argue for theism.’

<audience politely claps>

"And on my right may I introduce the group that are here to make the case for atheism."

<audience politely claps>

" Chairman: "First of we’ll ask those on my left to present their argument for…." (An assistant interrupts and whispers to the Chairman)

"Oh…er…and apparently in the centre we also have another group that doesn’t know what can be known but knows that they cannot know it for sure".

<audience laughs>

Assistant passes the Chairman a note received from the group in the centre.

Chairman: <reads the note aloud>: "It should be made clear that as agnostics we don’t believe anything is known or knowable beyond the material world."

Chairman’s announcement: "Please accept my apologies for the inconvenience, but before we continue with the debate might I ask those of you on my right to shuffle up a bit so that our friends in the centre can join you?"

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Atheism, as a 'disbelief', is great, but it's also necessarily agnostic. An atheist is still in belief/disbelief choice, without knowing for sure.


every atheist is an agnostic.

cheers.

And every theist as well. Ignorance permeates life.

 

[HonestJoe]

Atheism, as a 'disbelief', is great, but it's also necessarily agnostic. An atheist is still in belief/disbelief choice, without knowing for sure.

every atheist is an agnostic.

cheers. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Atheism and agnosticism are loosely defined words that have both been used and abused in various different ways over the years and have reached a point where they're used in so many different ways (often with bias and ulterior motives) as to render them almost meaningless, certainly outside specific context. I personally prefer describing my position in a specific situation rather than trying to find singular labels that could apply to me.

In practice, many people described as atheist can indeed also be described as agnostic but it certainly isn't automatic. There are atheists who hold the position of certainty that there are no gods, certainty no weaker than that of many theists. I don't agree with them but it is their (usually) honestly held position.

I do find it odd that you suggest it is "atheism" that need to accept that atheists are agnostic (and not only because the idea of an abstract concept accepting anything is ridiculous). In my experience, plenty of atheists self-identify as atheist-agnostic (I'm one when pushed for a label) and it is many theists who are unable or unwilling to accept the position of not believing in any god or gods but also not automatically denying such beings might exist.

 

[Desert Snake]

Atheism and agnosticism are loosely defined words that have both been used and abused in various different ways over the years and have reached a point where they're used in so many different ways (often with bias and ulterior motives) as to render them almost meaningless, certainly outside specific context. I personally prefer describing my position in a specific situation rather than trying to find singular labels that could apply to me.

In practice, many people described as atheist can indeed also be described as agnostic but it certainly isn't automatic. There are atheists who hold the position of certainty that there are no gods, certainty no weaker than that of many theists. I don't agree with them but it is their (usually) honestly held position.

I do find it odd that you suggest it is "atheism" that need to accept that atheists are agnostic (and not only because the idea of an abstract concept accepting anything is ridiculous). In my experience, plenty of atheists self-identify as atheist-agnostic (I'm one when pushed for a label) and it is many theists who are unable or unwilling to accept the position of not believing in any god or gods but also not automatically denying such beings might exist.

I think you might be reading into my OP a little...This is really all about definitions and how they're used.

 

[Desert Snake]

Some theists claim to be gnostic - to know there's god(s). I claim that I don't know 100%. It shows the intensity of the belief.

There's perhaps far fewer atheists who claim gnosticism but I've seen it before. IIRC there's one member on RF, can't remember their username, has that as their religion or title.

So... Where does this leave us? As Bunyip said, I say it goes either way.

Well, what use is a term if it has no meaning? that's really the point here, to recognize that when 'agnostic' is used, it neither has to be equated with theism and atheism, and when atheism is used, it isn't separate from theism in belief, it's the 'flip side' so to speak of theism.

 

[HonestJoe]

I think you might be reading into my OP a little...This is really all about definitions and how they're used.

You could have been a little clearer with your OP if that was your intention then. Regardless, my response was about definitions and how they're used too.

 

[Iti oj]

I like to say I am agonistic about a god and an atheist about your god. Lol