Atheism is not a belief, so why would anyone lie that it is?

[1213]

In what, specifically?

Belief that God doesn't exist.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I have never done that, and have very carefully and specifically explained that a broad definition of atheism should be the lack or absence of belief, precisely because it encompasses different types of atheists.

Yes. but only with further variation than just your definition above. Some versions are about the denial of the existence of gods.

 

[1213]

It was worded specifically to offer two positions, neither of which I hold, and I did answer it. I would say I don't believe in any deity or deities.

It is the same as saying you believe God does not exist.

 

[Valjean]

So atheism is the lack of beliefs in gods and atheism is the comprehensive world view.

Huh?

 

[Windwalker]

Well if someone can demonstrate some objective evidence that a newborn baby has beliefs I'm all ears, but I remain dubious until they can.

We are in agreement. Atheism cannot be the default position of an infant, because they are yet incapable of even knowing what a question is, like God, or Democracy, in order to be said they lack a belief in those, and therefore are communist, or atheists. They lack the capacity for beliefs at such a level of abstraction. That doesn't come for many years yet.

My understanding is that we start storing memories and creating beliefs about the world only once we are born, so unless this is wrong, their claims seems dubious to me.

Well, sure, at the level of differentiating between what is their body and what is not. 'I bite my hand, I feel it. I bite my blanket I do not', sort of basic awareness of what is "me/not me". Anything beyond that is way, way too complex to form beliefs, such as saying they lack belief in democracies, therefore by default they are communists. That's no different than saying they lack belief in God, therefore they are atheists. That's self-serving nonsense, like Muslims saying infants are born Muslims. Zero difference in absurdities.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Huh?

I show you that there are different definitions of atheism and they contradict each other. And they are all from atheists.

 

[Valjean]

It is the same as saying you believe God does not exist.

I show you that there are different definitions of atheism and they contradict each other. And they are all from atheists.

So what would be the one, unique feature common to every variety of atheist?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So what would be the one, unique feature common to every variety of atheist?

That they have anything other than a positive stance to gods. Maybe. But even that is only a maybe.

The problem is that the world is messy and not as orderly as some people would like to be.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

And yet, several of those objecting to this erroneous notion that atheism is not a belief, calls themselves atheists. I myself called myself an atheist for over 10 years, dropping that term about 10 years ago. We know very well what atheism is. Are you going to try to say they aren't True Atheists (tm) next? I for one championed it. I still do applaud it for many things. I embrace the pursuit of reason over superstitions. I do not disown it from my own past, I embrace it as a positive. I do not condemn it, as you falsely state. It was positive for me. I see it as positive for many people. The only thing I object to, is someone not owning it as a belief. Why not own it? I did. So as they say, strawman. What you say above is a strawman. It does not reflect @Augustus. It does not reflect me. It's a creation of fiction you are doing battle with. Not real people.

I've edited the post. It now says, "Yes, this is the compelling feature of many of the people condemning atheists and atheism - they don't know what an atheist actually believes and they appear to be literally unable to conceive of agnostic atheism. They don't disagree with the position. They cannot conceive of it to disagree with it."

Furthermore, I address that distinction subsequently in this same thread in post 966. There, I acknowledge that some theists don't understand the atheist position, and some do but disagree about what to call it - belief or unbelief.

But no to this being a fiction or a strawman. There are many posters in this thread alone who have no idea what an agnostic atheist is even after being told dozens of times.

Nor am I doing battle with them, for reasons given in that post. I don't care what word they use to describe the atheist position. I'll try to explain my position once or twice, but once I encounter comments like yours, I realize that the effort is pointless.

Own it? I disagree with you. Not surprisingly, you impute dishonest motives to that, and frame it in terms of hiding one's true opinion.

No. People are simply disagreeing with you on how the word belief should be used. Your nomenclature doesn't comport with their understanding, so they reject it.

And though you claim to have been an atheist, you don't seem to understand the typical atheist mind, which is no doubt why you frame this as lying and intellectual cowardice. You seem to have rejected the possibility that others simply don't see it your way.

They must be lying, right? Isn't that why you say the equivalent of "own it, liar. Just be honest."

 

[Sheldon]

I explain atheism as involving gods in some negative sense. There are different variations of that. That is all.

And as I said this doesn't describe all atheists, thus why would you define atheism in it's broadest sense in a way that excludes many atheists?

 

[Sheldon]

So what would be the one, unique feature common to every variety of atheist?

Oh oh oh, don't tell me, I know this one, nah it's gone...

Oh, it's a lack of belief in any deity or deities...

 

[Sheldon]

We are in agreement....they are yet incapable of even knowing what a question is, like God,

Yes we are in agreement, that since they lack a belief in any extant deity, they are atheists by default.

 

[Sheldon]

I explain atheism as involving gods in some negative sense.

No it doesn't I'm an atheist and that is demonstrably not true of my atheism and most of the atheists who have responded here. Or did you just word it carelessly? I just explained to you that atheism in its broadest sense should be defined to include ALL atheists, thus defining as a lack or absence of belief is how most people currently understand it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And as I said this doesn't describe all atheists, thus why would you define atheism in it's broadest sense in a way that excludes many atheists?

Yes, you are right. Non-positive would be better.

So for positive-neither-negative atheism is non-positive. Lack can then be neither or negative.
So positive beliefs, neither positive nor negative, or negative,

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No it doesn't I'm an atheist and that is demonstrably not true of my atheism and most of the atheists who have responded here. Or did you just word it carelessly? I just explained to you that atheism in its broadest sense should be defined to include ALL atheists, thus defining as a lack or absence of belief is how most people currently understand it.

Yes, I have changed my position,

 

[Sheldon]

And yet, several of those objecting to this erroneous notion that atheism is not a belief, calls themselves atheists.

Odd how you accept their claim as it meshes with your own biased agenda here, but you dismiss the opinions of the majority of other atheists here.

I am an agnostic and an atheist, I suggest anyone who doesn't like that get over it.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, I have changed my position,

Sorry, I read the other post after I had responded to the earlier one, my apologies.

 

[Windwalker]

And though you claim to have been an atheist, you don't seem to understand the typical atheist mind, which is no doubt why you frame this as lying and intellectual cowardice.

And you understand the "typical atheist mind" more than I do, how? Are you claiming that I wasn't a True Atheist(tm), because I don't really understand atheism as well as you do? How does that work, exactly? What makes you the expert on atheism, and not those who don't agree with you?

You seem to have rejected the possibility that others simply don't see it your way.

Oh, I'm fully aware others see it differently. All I am doing is pointing out the fallacies of the things they are pointing to justify what they are claiming. It's not much different than what I do pointing out the fallacies of creationists denying sound reason and evidence. It's a lot like that. "You must hate atheism, to say what you are saying", sorts of red herrings, and such.

They must be lying, right? Isn't that why you say the equivalent of "own it, liar. Just be honest."

Not exactly. I believe if someone is uncomfortable about something, like having an allergy to the word "belief" because it sounds too much like religion, cognitive dissonance kicks in. That's not lying. It's just a form of denial.

One of the reasons I quit self-identifying as an atheist, is for a lot of the same reasons I quit self-identifying as Christian. It was too much about believing they had the real truth, and everyone else was wrong, without a lot of self-awareness about the subjectivity of their beliefs.

 

[Sheldon]

It was worded specifically to offer two positions, neither of which I hold, and I did answer it. I would say I don't believe in any deity or deities.

It is the same as saying you believe God does not exist.

No it isn't, that is a preposterously idiotic claim.

 

[Sheldon]

And you understand the "typical atheist mind" more than I do, how? Are you claiming that I wasn't a True Atheist(tm), because I don't really understand atheism as well as you do? How does that work, exactly? What makes you the expert on atheism, and not those who don't agree with you?

Well firstly he didn't resort to petty insults as you did, and secondly the definition he is asserting doesn't exclude you, but yours does exclude me and many other atheists here. No one is telling you that you cannot believe no deity exists, knock yourself out, please extend other atheists the same courtesy when they explain to you they don't believe in any deity or deities, and that their atheism is not a belief that no deity exists.

Shall I explain the marbles again?