Atheism is not a belief, so why would anyone lie that it is?

[lukethethird]

He said, the "experience of the Mysterious". I said that is "Faith". I did not claim he said that whole sentence the way I worded it. Read it again. ""Faith" is the "experience of the Mysterious", as Einstein put it."

In other words, what I call "faith", Einstein called "the experience of the Mysterious". Get it now?

No, I don't and neither do you because you are reinterpreting what he said to suit yourself, and you are only fooling yourself.

 

[wandering peacefully]

the truest religious sense means. It "has also given rise to religion". That's faith. Now 'beliefs' come in behind it, as supports, and all too often overwhelm and replace faith with "believerism".

Have you watched the Disney Pixar movie "Soul"?
It does a much better job at describing what has given rise to religious beliefs and faith.

 

[Windwalker]

Clearly, my name is right there above my post.

No, I don't and neither do you because you are reinterpreting what he said to suit yourself, and you are only fooling yourself.

Tell me what you think that entire quote of Einstein is saying. I suspect it's you who is fooling yourself.

 

[Windwalker]

Oh my goodness. I already read the post you keep reverting to. I wasn't asking you to repeat it. I was asking about 3 or 4 examples of knowledge you can acquire from faith. That stuff above washes over my brain like mud. It means nothing to me.

Can you give an example of knowledge you personally have acquired with faith? I don't care what your refrenced author believes about what the heck ever he is rambling on about. Not an answer to my question.

If you don't have any examples, no problem just say so. I was just curious.

I can't help you if you can't follow what was written. It takes a little more effort than just saying it "washes over my brain like mud". There is a reason we see things differently, and I think you just explained why that is.

 

[Windwalker]

Have you watched the Disney Pixar movie "Soul"?
It does a much better job at describing what has given rise to religious beliefs and faith.

Yes I have. Wonderful film. What's your take on what it says? I might agree with it. Since you find that movie helpful to you, let's see if I can't use that as a frame of reference, instead of the more involved stuff which I find helpful to me.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Yes I have. Wonderful film. What's your take on what it says? I might agree with it. Since you find that movie helpful to you, let's see if I can't use that as a frame of reference, instead of the more involved stuff which I find helpful to me.

You first. In your own words. Knowledge acquired with faith. And please keep it short and to the point. And who said anything about it being helpful? It's a great movie and shows how magical beliefs can be. It shows the zen in life and that it will eventually end so be mindful and grateful for everything, everyone and every day.

I thought maybe you could see some of your ideas in the film.

 

[lukethethird]

Tell me what you think that entire quote of Einstein is saying. I suspect it's you who is fooling yourself.

The word faith was not in that quote because it wasn't about faith. He's writing about an emotion, a sense of awe that he shares with devoutly religious men.

 

[Windwalker]

You first. In your own words.

Actually you brought it up as an example of how, "It does a much better job at describing what has given rise to religious beliefs and faith." So I need you to explain that to me, to key in on what you had in mind. There are many layers to that film to consider, but you brought it up with something in mind. Let's discuss that.

Knowledge acquired with faith. And please keep it short and to the point.

Keeping things short is not my strong suit. However, as I said before, faith leads the way to knowledge. It's what allows us to see beyond the blocks and limits of our minds and language. That's why I quoted what Einstein said, as that illustrates that.

Again, how he speaks of the "experience of the mysterious", very much is what I believe "faith" is. It's not limited to ideas and concepts. Yet it is an impulse, a "knowing" that there is something beyond the mind's grasp. He said the same thing about this "emotion" as he called it in saying,

"To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
​

That is what, and how, "faith", in the non-verbal, non-cognitive, intuitive sense, gives us knowledge. As he says, we "know what is impenetrable to us really exists... which our dull [minds in the best of its thinking and reasoning] can comprehend only in their most primitive forms". You see how there is knowing and knowledge that exists beyond thinking?

That's what I mean by faith. It goes beyond beliefs, which are merely cognitive and "dull". "Faith" illuminates our "dull faculties" with a knowledge which goes beyond our best reasoning minds. This is what has given rise to the best of our "arts and sciences", and "true religiousness".

That's about as brief as I can go, but it's all there. The question is answered.

 

[Windwalker]

The word faith was not in that quote because it wasn't about faith. He's writing about an emotion, a sense of awe that he shares with devoutly religious men.

I never claimed it was in the quote, but the meaning is the same. See my post just now immediately before this one, for further clarification.

 

[lukethethird]

I never claimed it was in the quote, but the meaning is the same. See my post just now immediately before this one, for further clarification.

You claimed it was Einstein and now you are denying it. Here's what you stated,
"Faith" is the "experience of the Mysterious", as Einstein put it."
Your pants are on fire.

 

[Yazata]

Faith is an excuse people use, to justify a belief they have no proper evidence for.

You're awfully opinionated for a guy who claims that he has no beliefs.

There is literally nothing you couldn't believe using the vapidity of faith, so it useless in establishing the validity of a claim.

Faith is the human condition, Sheldon. That's as true for atheists as for anyone else.

It's impossible to provide sound justification for every belief one holds, without infinite regress or circularity. At some point there's going to be some premise that one just has to accept because it seems intuitively obvious. Imagine trying to justify one's use of logic without employing logic or without appealing to intuition. And try practicing science without employing logic. Without faith, all of human intellectual life just implodes.

Hume's analysis of our trust in causation. The problem of induction. Inference to the best explanation.

Our moral intuitions of good and evil, right and wrong, are tremendously important to people in our hugely moralistic neo-puritan age. But what is ethics based on if not intuition? And I think that we all know that not everyone's intuitions coincide on these matters. Yet we never see atheists attacking moral intuitions the way they attack religious faith. Why is that?

Pretty much any belief can be attacked the same way that you are trying to attack religion, including all of the beliefs that atheists insist that they don't have.

Every human being lives their life on the basis of faith, on the basis of confidence in beliefs that aren't (and perhaps in principle can't be) soundly justified.

 

[lukethethird]

Pretty much any belief can be attacked the same way that you are trying to attack religion, including all of the beliefs that atheists insist that they don't have.

There is only one belief that atheists don't have, and that is of a god.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're awfully opinionated for a guy who claims that he has no beliefs.

"You don't need to live in New York City to be an American" <> "no Americans live in New York City"

"You don't need to believe anything about God to be an atheist" <> "no atheists believe anything about God"

 

[Windwalker]

You claimed it was Einstein and now you are denying it. Here's what you stated,
"Faith" is the "experience of the Mysterious", as Einstein put it."
Your pants are on fire.

I did not claim Einstein said that. I already explained it. I put the word "faith" in quotes, and then said that the same as Einstein was meaning in what he said. I explained this already. The sentence was just awkwardly worded. That's all. I explained what I meant. And you call me a liar? I have no need to lie. What he said is the same as what I mean by the word faith. It's self-explanatory.

Note: You see a gap in the quotes between what I said, and Einstein said? If I would have claimed that as a quote for Einstein, there would be no break, yet. "is the" is outside the quotes. Get it now?? If for some reason I wanted to lie about that quote from him, it would have read, "Faith is the experience of the Mysterious". I did not write it that way.

Why not deal with the actual substance of what I said and meant, rather than misrepresenting me here? Is that all you've got? To distort what I meant and attack that distortion? Should I take that as you have nothing to actually say to the actual points I made, and clarified already then?

 

[Valjean]

I think that is agnosticism, not atheism.

Agnosticism is the claim that God is unknowable. Many use it as "I don't know," as well, but that would overlap with atheism.

 

[Windwalker]

Agnosticism is the claim that God is unknowable.

I think you mean to say, is they would say that is unknowable whether God exists or not, not that "God is unknowable". Most theists say God is unknowable. That's why the term "ineffable" is used. God is considered as being beyond the mind's ability to comprehend. Certainly all mystics would say this. I don't think that the agnostic would actually say it that way, as they don't know if God exists or not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually, I believe most theists say this as well. That's why the term "ineffable" is used. Certainly all mystics would say this. I don't think that the agnostic would actually say it that way, as they don't know if God exists or not. I think you mean to say, is they would say that its unknowable whether God exists or not, not that "God is unknowable".

To be more precise agnosticism is the belief that the existence of God is unknowable. In other words you cannot know if a God exists or not. That is not the same definition as yours.

 

[Windwalker]

To be more precise agnosticism is the belief that the existence of God is unknowable. In other words you cannot know if a God exists or not. That is not the same definition as yours.

I agree. That's exactly what I said in my post you quoted. I was commenting on how he worded it which was that agnostics believe "God is unknowable". That's not what agnostics believe, as I said. We are in agreement.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree. That's exactly what I said in my post you quoted. I was commenting on how he worded it which was that agnostics believe "God is unknowable". That's not what agnostics believe, as I said. We are in agreement.

Not at first. You edited your post after I quoted it.

 

[Valjean]

Windwalker said: ↑
the truest religious sense means. It "has also given rise to religion". That's faith. Now 'beliefs' come in behind it, as supports, and all too often overwhelm and replace faith with "believerism".

Faith need not have a religious context. One can have faith that her candidate will win.
Belief as support? How is belief support? Belief is just belief. It can be well supported, as knowledge, or poorly supported, like faith.