McBell
Admiral Obvious
No, YOU dismiss cause and effect as soon at it gets you to your god.
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Atheism is not a default position
- Thread starter Willamena
- Start date
I don't see the similarity.
More generally, I'm saying that every belief entails (at least one) disbelief and vice versa. So long as one is able to say that one is an atheist (excepting those who are saying this without any idea whatsoever what it means, such as a child mimicking words and phrases they don't understand when learning to speak), and one believes that one is an atheist (i.e., one isn't lying), then necessarily one is asserting an epistemic position that entails both disbelief(s) and belief(s) (same with one claiming to be a theist, deist, agnostic, etc.). Atheists cannot logically, linguistically, or physiologically truly "lack a belief about god" unless they do so in the same ways that infants or rocks do.
Granted that once atheist came to mean "disbelief in god or gods" because such a position was possible to hold, I DO think atheists must make claims by identifying themselves as such because of theistic, deistic, and other religious claims. That is, without any claims that god or gods exist, there would be no atheists. The reason there are atheists is because such claims exist and there are sufficiently many people who disbelieve them such that we require a word for this position: atheism. We have words relating to epistemic positions only in relation to conflicting or at least differing positions, and self-identification with such a position via a word or construction in a given language only exists in order to make positive belief claims (even if these positive belief claims are positive in the sense that they are claims one believe some state of affairs doesn't exist/couldn't exist/didn't exist/etc.).
Simply put, we don't have words for "lack a belief in leprechauns" or "lack a belief in the luminous ether" or any number of infinitely many other possible words to denote "lack a belief in X" because humans don't identify themselves with what they don't believe nor create words to identify themselves as not believing unless not believing is sufficiently clearly established as a belief claim about the falsity of some position important enough to warrant such a word/construction.
No. But I don't identify myself as an atheist but an agnostic, and I regard as patently absurd and prima facie illogical the notion that there exist some default epistemic state. It is trivial and obvious (both philosophically and scientifically) that infants and rocks "lack a belief in god or gods" in ways no atheist capable of identifying themselves as such could. I don't run around talking about positions I don't have a belief in because 1) there are infinitely many such "lack of belief(s) (in)" and 2) we don't have words for more than a handful. Were atheism merely a kind of lack of belief of the sort an infant has, the word "atheist" wouldn't exist.
That would be difficult, as even Aristotle formulated four categories of causes and the "proto-scientists" (the early modern Western natural philosophers like Newton) were borrowing heavily from Greek thought. Neither they nor modern scientists subscribe to any so simplistic a law. However, to the extent that by "law" you mean something akin to proximal or efficient cause, then nonlocality is perhaps the easiest and most clear counter-example.
marcosmasliaev
Member
Heisenberg uncertainty pRinciple does not invalidate cause andc effect law. It just says about uncertainty, the cause of phenomenon remains.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
God is the Cause....the universe (one word) is the effect.
I don't mind that you point out the dilemma of Spirit First.
It is a mystery.
No photo, no fingerprint, no equation, and no repeatable experiment.
You can't have proof.
You can have reason.
If you want to.....some people say science allows for some things to have no cause.
If it makes you feel better.....God had no cause and science will not object.
Reasonable people don't just call whatever they can't explain a mystery and blame it on gods. Theists do.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Close enough.....
and the Lord said unto Moses....tell the people (My Name).....I AM!
and they that understand will know Whose law this is!
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
oh now....be nice....
and reasonable....
Thief
Rogue Theologian
No really....in the scheme of regression.....Someone had to be First.
I am being reasonable. Just stating facts. Don't know the cause of earthquakes; blame Poseidon. Don't know the cause of thunder; blame Thor. Blaming gods is a basic survival mechanism and alleviates our fear of the unknown by inventing an explanation for it. The unknown becomes "known" and maybe you can even influence the gods and gain some control over what's happening. The psychology of religion is a fascinating subject.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I'm not religious.
guess I'm not fascinating.
marcosmasliaev
Member
It's so obvious, all that is, universe is the effect. What is the cause?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
This is blatantly false. The default position is that held by the blank mind, without any kind of information. The concept of God does not exist to a child until that child is informed about the concept. Thus, that child is in the default position of implicit lack of belief in the existence of God or "atheism".
leibowde84
Veteran Member
"Atheism" includes everyone who is not "theist", as it means "without theism". So, in actuality, aren't you guys saying the same thing pretty much?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Someone had to be First.
I think He believed in Himself.
He has been reported to have said......I AM!
If you prefer to call Moses a liar.....now is the opportunity.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
The default position of human beings, buddy. Not the default position of God or Jesus. Why would anyone even attempt to speak to that?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I have the opinion....MOST people believe in Something Greater.