Atheism is not a default position

[viole]

Ok, this is your view today. For me this doen't invalidate my quotes about cause and effect law.

It is not only my view. It is the view of anyone that has a clue about basic physics, I am afraid. Unless, of course, you can lay down for me a viable physical argument that contradicts me.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Thief]

So if at a soccer match a person says that he believes team A will win and I reject that belief it means I believe team B will win? Why can't I go for a draw?

there's no fence in soccer...
tennis anyone?

 

[leibowde84]

Today we only have indirect evidences. This makes sense for me. Today science can't get acess point. If someone beliefs are based exclusively on science he/she must necessarily have an obtuse view of universe. In fact science has its own evolution in human society. Somethings go beyond today science. We are just beginning or science.

I didn't mean scientific evidence. Just evidence in general. What supports your belief about souls?

 

[Ouroboros]

I read it as being born with a set of genes that have constructed a brain that is predisposed to believe in certain things like we are born with a set of genes that have constructed a body that is predisposed to get cancer.

Sure. But we catch on to this belief before anyone even suggests it to us, because the brain prefers the belief over non-belief.

I know in your view a lump of cells are atheists because of complete ignorance and incompetence to belief, but a child that is competent, yet ignorant of God, does create the image of God naturally. All according to the articles you've linked so far.

Correct. We aren't born with "religious beliefs" we are born with a set of genes that have constructed our brain in such a way that we are very susceptible to certain beliefs.

We're born with a brain wired to belief in God. That's what they say. It's suggested a certain gene is responsible, but I don't believe that's true. It's more complex than that. Belief is natural to us because without it we wouldn't have imagination, creativity, and many other abilities that go with it.

Read this very good article: Are We Born with Belief in God?Of course there's a difference between "religion" and "theism". Never said otherwise. Strawman.Never said otherwise. Strawman.

You mean when you said

It must be very confusing for a person who doesn't know what the word predisposed means.

"Predisposed to believe
There’s no one cognitive tendency that undergirds all our religious beliefs, says Barrett. “It’s really your basic, garden-variety cognitions that provide the impetus for religious beliefs,” he says."
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx

We aren't born believers, we are born predisposed to believe. Get the difference?

Where you referred to the article saying that we're not born religious believers, and the whole discussion is about atheism. In other words, you mixed up belief in religion with belief in God (theism). Which are very different.

 

[ArtieE]

But, but, that's what the articles ArtieE linked to say! The articles say that kids are born with a generic belief in God.

Quote exactly where they say kids are born with a generic belief in God.

 

[Willamena]

Oh no....you really don't believe that....do you?

Where "creation" is the measure, as it was in the question you posed to me, then I must judge them by that measure.

 

[Ouroboros]

Quote exactly where they say kids are born with a generic belief in God.

Sorry. Kids are born with a brain wired to believe in God. That better?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The research ArtieE linked to says otherwise.


But, but, that's what the articles ArtieE linked to say! The articles say that kids are born with a generic belief in God.

That's flat-out not true. ArtieE's article says exactly the same thing that I'm saying: humans possess brains which cause us to TEND towards belief in God. Nothing says that we are BORN BELIEVING in God.

 

[Ouroboros]

Other quote from the article:

But this tendency also set us up to believe in an omnipresent God-like concept. Taken together, it’s easy to see how these cognitive tendencies could allow our minds to create religions built on the idea of supernatural beings that watch over our lives, says Atran, director of research at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique in Paris.

Such research also supports the notion that religious thought is in many ways an unavoidable byproduct of the way our minds work. Psychologist Thomas Plante, PhD, hopes that view will help people see themselves as “more whole.”

 

[leibowde84]

Sure. But we catch on to this belief before anyone even suggests it to us, because the brain prefers the belief over non-belief.

I know in your view a lump of cells are atheists because of complete ignorance and incompetence to belief, but a child that is competent, yet ignorant of God, does create the image of God naturally. All according to the articles you've linked so far.


We're born with a brain wired to belief in God. That's what they say. It's suggested a certain gene is responsible, but I don't believe that's true. It's more complex than that. Belief is natural to us because without it we wouldn't have imagination, creativity, and many other abilities that go with it.


You mean when you said

Where you referred to the article saying that we're not born religious believers, and the whole discussion is about atheism. In other words, you mixed up belief in religion with belief in God (theism). Which are very different.

Why wouldn't we have creativity without belief in God?

 

[Ouroboros]

That's flat-out not true. ArtieE's article says exactly the same thing that I'm saying: humans possess brains which cause us to TEND towards belief in God. Nothing says that we are BORN BELIEVING in God.

Sorry. Misspoke.

But it's not just tend, but is hardwired to. Kids come up with the God-belief without influence from outside, and even regardless and against influence. From reading bits-and-pieces of the articles, basically humans thinking of understanding the world goes hand-in-hand with the concept of God. We only understand the world as children out of the view of a supreme God. In other words, theism is the child's explanation to how the world works.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Other quote from the article:

But this tendency also set us up to believe in an omnipresent God-like concept. Taken together, it’s easy to see how these cognitive tendencies could allow our minds to create religions built on the idea of supernatural beings that watch over our lives, says Atran, director of research at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique in Paris.

Such research also supports the notion that religious thought is in many ways an unavoidable byproduct of the way our minds work. Psychologist Thomas Plante, PhD, hopes that view will help people see themselves as “more whole.”

Again, the article is talking exclusively about tendencies in the human brain - it is not addressing the default position. It is stating, quite simply, that the way the human brain functions makes it more likely for us to naturally adopt theistic explanations rather than scientific ones. This isn't even really surprising, nor is it it relevant to the fact that the default position is still an absence of belief.

 

[Ouroboros]

Why wouldn't we have creativity without belief in God?

Imagination, and the ability to see how we can modify the things that are in this world.

If I understand ArtieE's articles right, the natural basic thought process or cognition we have as humans to understand the world and make sense out of it goes hand-in-hand with believing in a supreme power behind it. You can't have creativity without the insight into how the things work in this world, and if the insight into how the things work in this world is connected to a natural belief in God (according to the articles), then they go hand-in-hand.

 

[ArtieE]

We're born with a brain wired to belief in God. That's what they say.

Where? Please quote.

Where you referred to the article saying that we're not born religious believers, and the whole discussion is about atheism. In other words, you mixed up belief in religion with belief in God (theism). Which are very different.

I didn't mix up. The article mentions both. I just copied that paragraph because the headline says "predisposed to believe". Forget the rest of the lines then. Did you understand the difference between born believers and "predisposed to believe"?

 

[Ouroboros]

Again, the article is talking exclusively about tendencies in the human brain - it is not addressing the default position.

No. It's the default position. A child will naturally believe in God by default. That's what they're saying in the article. Don't blame me for what they're saying.

It is stating, quite simply, that the way the human brain functions makes it more likely for us to naturally adopt theistic explanations rather than scientific ones. This isn't even really surprising, nor is it it relevant to the fact that the default position is still an absence of belief.

I give up.

I'm not going to discuss this even further. It's just a waste of time.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Sorry. Misspoke.

But it's not just tend, but is hardwired to.

We are not born "hard-wired" to believe. Belief in God is never a certainty - it is a tendency.

Kids come up with the God-belief without influence from outside, and even regardless and against influence.

Not all kids. And neither would it be relevant to the default position if that WERE true of all kids.

From reading bits-and-pieces of the articles, basically humans thinking of understanding the world goes hand-in-hand with the concept of God.

Wrong. The article just says that it is easier for our brains to understand the world naturally with a theistic worldview than adopt one that is more counter-intuitive. It is not saying that understanding the world is necessarily dependent on the concept of God, just that people, left to their own devices, tend to formalize or adopt theistic beliefs as explanations for the world around them because it is more intuitive to how our brains function. It's not surprising when you consider that the human brain is designed to recognize patters and assign purpose, so we tend to imprint those qualities on to the Universe. It's how our brains work, so we assume it must be how the Universe works.

We only understand the world as children out of the view of a supreme God. In other words, theism is the child's explanation to how the world works.

Again, this isn't true of all children. It is a tendency, not a certainty.

 

[Willamena]

Imagination, and the ability to see how we can modify the things that are in this world.

If I understand ArtieE's articles right, the natural basic thought process or cognition we have as humans to understand the world and make sense out of it goes hand-in-hand with believing in a supreme power behind it.

e.g. the belief that there is a reason for everything, that everything happens for a reason.

You can't have creativity without the insight into how the things work in this world, and if the insight into how the things work in this world is connected to a natural belief in God (according to the articles), then they go hand-in-hand.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No. It's the default position. A child will naturally believe in God by default. That's what they're saying in the article.

No they're not, and you're now just being blatantly dishonest. The article simply states that the human brain tends towards theistic explanation. It says absolutely nothing about the default position.

I give up.

I'm not going to discuss this even further. It's just a waste of time.

If you have to resort to lies, maybe you should.

 

[Ouroboros]

We are not born "hard-wired" to believe. Belief in God is never a certainty - it is a tendency.

We're not hard-wired to believe? Not at all? So belief is a mental construct in general? Does this go for knowledge too? Belief, knowledge, ideas, etc, are just metaphysical concepts that have no correlation to processes in the physical brain? Please elaborate.

Not all kids. And neither would it be relevant to the default position if that WERE true of all kids.

Doesn't matter. The issue is if kids are born with this or not. It's said that default is that all kids are atheists. Now, this research that was provided by ArtieE to prove that this was the case, talks about how kids are born with a readiness to believe in God, not to be atheists.

Wrong. The article just says that it is easier for our brains to understand the world naturally with a theistic worldview than adopt one that is more counter-intuitive.

Not just easier, but naturally. It's the way we understand the world. Some of the other quotes I found from his book earlier shows examples of how kids become believers, against the influence from the environment.

It is not saying that understanding the world is necessarily dependent on the concept of God, just that people, left to their own devices, tend to formalize or adopt theistic beliefs as explanations for the world around them because it is more intuitive to how our brains function. It's not surprising when you consider that the human brain is designed to recognize patters and assign purpose, so we tend to imprint those qualities on to the Universe. It's how our brains work, so we assume it must be how the Universe works.

Exactly. The tendency to place explanation on a God is natural, because that's how we process our understanding of the world! To understand the world is to default (as children) to a belief in a God, and we have to learn that nature is naturally the way it is without God.

Again, this isn't true of all children. It is a tendency, not a certainty.

Or, perhaps all children have a belief and have to unlearn it. In other words, theism as the default cognitive understanding of the world, and atheism as a learned understanding.

Put it this way, let's go with the implicit atheism for the unborn and the children yet not having mental faculties. But then, as soon as the cognitive abilities start, they're by default theists. Then they have to unlearn this to become explicit atheists.

That good enough?

 

[Ouroboros]

No they're not, and you're now just being blatantly dishonest. The article simply states that the human brain tends towards theistic explanation. It says absolutely nothing about the default position.


If you have to resort to lies, maybe you should.

Woooooow.

That's it. We're done.