• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheism is not a default position

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes you can.
Do you believe that neurophysiology (brain activity) underlies beliefs (as it does thoughts, concepts, etc.)? If so, then neuroscience demonstrates the impossibility of lacking any belief about a concept, notion, entity, proposition, etc., that one has some understanding of. That is, merely the ability to use the word "god" in any way other than that of a parrot entails belief about god and it is possible to observe/demonstrate the physiological changes that reflect this.There exist distinctions between the processing of linguistic units- lexemes or constructions- that an individual is capable of understanding and those that one doesn't, and these physiological changes correspond to beliefs conceptual representations reflect e.g., beliefs about similarity/dissimilarity of concepts (one of the first neuroimaging studies I worked on was looking at the neural representation of beliefs among subjects who evaluated concepts similarly along a spiritual/materialism dimension).
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
The PIE root of the Latin deus is known, and has been for a long time: "deus from *deos, *deiwas: Skt. devas, Lith. dievas, OPr. deiws..."
Buck, C. D. (1933). Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin. University of Chicago Press.
Buck's classic is still the standard, but its age required a new treatment which, while less comprehensive and arguably deficient in other ways, provides all the necessary updates: Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin (Oxford University Press, 1995). The etymology of deus is unchanged except that other cognates are added, but in addition the Greek theos is explicitly stated to be distinct and indeed (unlike the Latin deus) unknown:
"θεός 'god', of uncertain etymology..."
Etymologically, deus is related to the Greek Zeus; see e.g., Gamkrelidze & Ivanov's Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction of a Proto-Language and a Proto-Culture sect. 8.3.3. The highest Indo-European deity, the sky god (Mouton de Gruyter, 1995).

It is true that even someone familiar with both Greek and Latin might make the mistake of thinking the two are cognates, and in fact Baldi uses these two words as an example of how the application of comparative/historical linguistics which underlies PIE reconstruction and IE studies reveals the problems posed by ignoring the scientific and systematic foundations for PIE reconstruction in favor of apparent, intuitive similarities:
"An example of such differences can be found in approaches to the etymologies of the words for 'god', deus in Latin and θεός in Greek. Despite their close semantic and morphological resemblances, the two words cannot be taken as cognates according to the strict application of the comparative method. Regular sound developments would predict either *feus for Latin or *δεός for Greek if the two were derived from a common etymon."
Baldi, P. (2002). The Foundations of Latin. Mouton de Gruyter.


Now correct me if I am wrong. The comparative method suggests that theos and dyeus are not the same because "strict application" would suggest that instead of theos we would have deos or something to that effect. And since we have theos, we cannot conclude they are of the same origin, because there the variation does not follow the same pattern as other words that are demonstrably from the same roots. But with this said, Greek writing began around 800b.c. and there is no written account of how the Greek said God prior. So, because theos is not demonstrably pie or ie we are left to assume the Greeks pulled it from, well, their Greek places.

But, the mouth movement is close, and the sound is close, and it could be from the same roots, but we don't know for certain, because it doesn't fit the mold so it could also be chance.

But is it erroneous to say they are not from the same roots, since they could be?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Do you believe that neurophysiology (brain activity) underlies beliefs (as it does thoughts, concepts, etc.)?
Yes it underlies beliefs. Not the absence of them.
If so, then neuroscience demonstrates the impossibility of lacking any belief about a concept, notion, entity, proposition, etc., that one has some understanding of.
I understand that some people believe that gods exist but I don't, I understand that some people believe that gods don't exist but I don't. I lack those beliefs.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Do you believe that neurophysiology (brain activity) underlies beliefs (as it does thoughts, concepts, etc.)? If so, then neuroscience demonstrates the impossibility of lacking any belief about a concept, notion, entity, proposition, etc., that one has some understanding of. That is, merely the ability to use the word "god" in any way other than that of a parrot entails belief about god and it is possible to observe/demonstrate the physiological changes that reflect this.There exist distinctions between the processing of linguistic units- lexemes or constructions- that an individual is capable of understanding and those that one doesn't, and these physiological changes correspond to beliefs conceptual representations reflect e.g., beliefs about similarity/dissimilarity of concepts (one of the first neuroimaging studies I worked on was looking at the neural representation of beliefs among subjects who evaluated concepts similarly along a spiritual/materialism dimension).
Interesting, have you by chance done any study on people with severe autism such that their speech is primarily if not completely eccolatia (sp?)?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Yes it underlies beliefs. Not the absence of them.I understand that some people believe that gods exist but I don't, I understand that some people believe that gods don't exist but I don't. I lack those beliefs.
Do you believe the possibility of a God existing is equal to that any God not existing?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Do you believe the possibility of a God existing is equal to that any God not existing?
Theism is the belief in the existence of gods, atheism is the absence of theism. I don't believe anything about how probable it is that gods exist or that gods don't exist.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Theism is the belief in the existence of gods, atheism is the absence of theism. I don't believe anything about how probable it is that gods exist or that gods don't exist.
Explain that.

You do think it is a probability or you don't think it is a probability?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Interesting, have you by chance done any study on people with severe autism such that their speech is primarily if not completely eccolatia (sp?)?
No. I've done studies with people whose ability process (classical) grammatical categories (verbs or nouns, respectively) was severely limited or non-existent, and my first PI specialized in the neuroscience and neurobiology of deficits like aphasia and what they demonstrated about the nature of language and cognition. I also worked on studies that investigated concepts/beliefs/categorization apart from linguistic expression. But I have never participated or consulted in studies of autism spectrum disorder with respect to this or any other issue.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
No. I've done studies with people whose ability process (classical) grammatical categories (verbs or nouns, respectively) was severely limited or non-existent, and my first PI specialized in the neuroscience and neurobiology of deficits like aphasia and what they demonstrated about the nature of language and cognition. I also worked on studies that investigated concepts/beliefs/categorization apart from linguistic expression. But I have never participated or consulted in studies of autism spectrum disorder with respect to this or any other issue.
If you know of any studies regarding eccolatia and this, send the cite my way. I would be interested to find out if the repeated phrases indicate some concrete expression or emotion. Sounds like interesting stuff.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
A weak atheist hasn't made up his mind whether to believe God exists or to believe God doesn't exist. I suppose he thinks the probability of both is less than 100%.
I would go further. I would say that the he/she thinks the probability of both is exactly equal.

Otherwise a degree of certainty would exist for one or the other.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I would go further. I would say that the he/she thinks the probability of both is exactly equal.

Otherwise a degree of certainty would exist for one or the other.
To be honest I don't see any point trying to complicate things further. It's difficult enough to get people to understand the simplest things. I have no interest in starting to calculate probabilities.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now correct me if I am wrong. The comparative method suggests that theos and dyeus are not the same because "strict application" would suggest that instead of theos we would have deos or something to that effect.
Only if one is applying the "comparative method" to these two lexemes (I would say methods but then Baldi is the expert here, not me). That is, granted only the application of the "comparative method" of Greek and Latin and the two relevant lexemes we would have only what Baldi describes. However, if applied merely to the two languages in their entirety, let alone IE language in general, we can determine far more. Greek has a word that, like the Latin deus, can be traced back to PIE. However, that lexeme isn't theos but Zeus. In other words, we know the Greek equivalent of deus and we also know that the reconstruction methods we have successfully used since the late 1700s show that the Greek theos isn't related to any PIE root for "god" or anything else.

But with this said, Greek writing began around 800b.c. and there is no written account of how the Greek said God prior.
Actually one of the great breakthroughs in classical philology, IE linguistics, historical linguistics, etc., was the realization that the previously undecipherable Linear B texts were Greek but in a different alphabet. So not only do we have a record of Greek going back even farther, the earliest extant representations of the language use completely different alphabet, allowing us to examine phonological, lexical, and other aspects of ancient Greek that are impossible for most ancient languages.

But, the mouth movement is close, and the sound is close, and it could be from the same roots, but we don't know for certain, because it doesn't fit the mold so it could also be chance.
The sound is less close than one might think. Like Chinese, Greek was a tonal language. So while neither I nor anybody I know pronounces any ancient Greek dialect the way we think it is pronounced (and in fact my first professor of ancient Greek was Greek and used modern Greek pronunciation which made life difficult for me), we still know that e.g., the theta which begins the word theos was aspirated and the zeta that begins zeus was phonologically distinct from this but related to the dental initial pronunciation of deus and the PIE root.

But is it erroneous to say they are not from the same roots, since they could be?
It would be erroneous to say it is impossible for them to have the same root. But the sciences are about the likely and in particular the likely vs. the extremely unlikely, and here we have a situation that is extremely unlikely (that theos and deus share the same root) and one that is likely (they don't).
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I also worked on studies that investigated concepts/beliefs/categorization apart from linguistic expression.
Substitute "a belief" with "a computer". Suppose a person is living in the Amazon rain forest and doesn't have a computer and hasn't even heard of computers. Is there any special brain activity required of him to not have a computer? If not why is there any special brain activity required to not have a belief?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Substitute "a belief" with "a computer". Suppose a person is living in the Amazon rain forest and doesn't have a computer and hasn't even heard of computers. Is there any special brain activity required of him to not have a computer?
You realize that this is my point, no? An infant or person who has never heard the word "god" can't hold a belief about god, but anybody who is capable of using the word must, and this is related to your example. A person who hasn't ever heard of computers processes the word like they might the sound of a bird call or similarly meaningless sound. They truly lack a belief because they lack the capacity to process the word and relate it to the concept (and in your example as in many others they lack the concept too). To be capable of using the word god as you do necessarily entails "special brain activity" of the type that makes it physiologically impossible for a self-identified atheists to "lack a belief" about god.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
You realize that this is my point, no? An infant or person who has never heard the word "god" can't hold a belief about god, but anybody who is capable of using the word must, and this is related to your example. A person who hasn't ever heard of computers processes the word like they might the sound of a bird call or similarly meaningless sound. They truly lack a belief because they lack the capacity to process the word and relate it to the concept (and in your example as in many others they lack the concept too). To be capable of using the word god as you do necessarily entails "special brain activity" of the type that makes it physiologically impossible for a self-identified atheists to "lack a belief" about god.
An atheist doesn't have to self-identify as an atheist to be an atheist any more than a baby has to self-identify as a baby to be a baby. Of course a self-identified atheist can say "I'm an atheist. I lack belief that God exists. That's why I call myself an atheist."
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
An atheist doesn't have to self-identify as an atheist to be an atheist any more than a baby has to self-identify as a baby to be a baby.
Likewise, one could self-identify as an atheist, theist, deist, or Wiccan fundamentalist Satanist Muslim agnostic, but it won't change the fact that simply using the word "god" makes it physiologically impossible to lack beliefs about "god".

I lack belief that God exists.
Yet any number of neuroimaging experimental paradigms would allow me to distinguish you from someone who, like your Amazonian, REALLY lacks such a belief.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
"Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable."

Notice the word "unknown" in the last sentence?
Yes, the word occurs, but it is in context. It says that the agnostic makes a positive claim that truth values of certain claims are unknown. His claim is not one of ignorance about those claims (I don't know, I really can't say because I have no clue) but one of knowledge about truth values (some claims can have no truth value).
 
Top