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Atheism is not a default position

How could I possibly rely on ... [see above for more!]
  • If you don't rely on it, it has no impact on your position and is thus utterly immaterial to you---I apologize, I assumed you were belabouring the point for a reason.
  • You should apologize for asserting your opponent's arguments were invalid because they may or may not have been based on financial acce---frak it, do I really have to go on, or can you take it from here?
  • Yes, that is the post to which I was referring. And you'll be happy to know I forgave every one of your ad hominems---I won't even seek credit for it in the future: really, I just want to give you enough rope.
Anywho, let me just restate that "laughable little post" so that you can more-easily shoot it down---no, it's really no big deal, I'm just that kinda guy:

Atheism most certainly is a "default" position---at least, to the extent that the following are default positions:
  • A-"firebreathing-dragons-are-real"-ism
  • A-"there's-an-invisible-leprechaun-on-my-shoulder"-ism
  • A-"I'm-a-robot"-ism
To claim that atheism is not the default state, you have only two choices:
  1. Argue that evidence (of some kind) distinguishes belief in god from belief in firebreathing dragons, leprechauns, robot solipsism---or any other member of a set of (literally) infinite possible things to believe in. But this concedes that belief in gods is a positive claim, which requires evidence, and for which the default position is---by definition---non-belief.
  2. Argue that nothing distinguishes belief in god from belief in anything else: every member of that infinite set of all possible possibilities? However fanciful, they're all equally likely. Except... in a set of infinite possibilities, there exist infinite contradictions for any one member---and this means, if all of those possibilities are equally likely, that any one possibility is rendered infinitely unlikely by its own infinite contradictions. After all, if we have contradictory beliefs and no evidence to distinguish one from another... we're just playing the odds. And so every indistinguishable possibility gets dragged into an indecipherable mess of background static.
In either case, nonbelief---a-"whatever"-ism---is the default. Hell, a-"Theory of Gravity"-ism is the default: Evidence, and evidence alone, has the power to elevate a possibility from background static, and it's why no one's an a-"gravity"-ist today. (Has it really taken a bajillion posts to get us here?)
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Atheism most certainly is a "default" position---at least, to the extent that the following are default positions:
  • A-"firebreathing-dragons-are-real"-ism
  • A-"there's-an-invisible-leprechaun-on-my-shoulder"-ism
  • A-"I'm-a-robot"-ism
  • A-"atheism"-ism
  • A-"non-theism"-ism
  • A-"I-have-a-position"-ism
etc. We have multiple formally defined (and empirically applied) systems of belief functions (e.g., those found in subjective or Bayesian analysis or modal logics), epistemology, epistemic modality (in cognitive science/linguistics, linguistic typology, etc.), epistemic logics, and so forth, yet all this is thrown aside in order to define an inconsistent, self-contradictory notion of default positions in terms of a grammatical device (affixation) and the following algorithm:
1) Let P be any proposition or lexeme N.
2) Prefix "A" to N.
3) Post-pose/suffix "-ism" to N
4) Conclude that this agglutination procedure provides the default epistemic stance relative to the truth value/existence of the proposition/lexeme N.

Of course, this procedure yields infinitely many logical contradictions. For example:
(1) A-"people-are-basically-good"-ism
(1*) A-"people-are-basically-bad"-ism

(2) A-"gnostic"-ism
(2*) Agnosticism

In (1) and (1*), we see an example of an easily derived contradiction yielded by this simplistic, flawed approach simply by taking two contradicting propositions and affixing the requisite "A" and "-ism" to them. In (2) and (2*), we see that this leads to more nuanced yet nonetheless fundamentally flaws by virtue of defining a default position as one which is anything other than the position that one has a position with respect to the existence of god or (according to some usage) religion more generally.
 
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Just as I thought.
I debunked that a few years ago. There was no research, not results, nothing at all, just claims.
This is just mindless repetition of long refuted claims. Why? Why would anyone repeat this article? Kids tend to believe anything and abusing this to try and make it look as though there is a tendency to believe something and make atheists look deficient somehow is sad.
All they did was ask kids of differing ages whether it was more likely that mommy knew less than a god. Sick, in my eyes.

Scintillating rebuttal. I, for one, am completely convinced.

You've refuted three years of Oxford research and convinced me that the scientists involved are all a part of some sick and twisted conspiracy with your in-depth investigative reporting. Nicely done! The next time I speak to the Queen, I'll put in a request that you be knighted for your heroic deed.

:p
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
  • If you don't rely on it, it has no impact on your position and is thus utterly immaterial to you
I didn't rely on the assumption that "god created the integers, all else is [false] creations of humankind" either. That's because I don't require the assumption of irrelevant idiocy in order to assert something completely irrelevant to said assertion
I apologize, I assumed you were belabouring the point for a reason.
Yes, I was making a point. You were pontificating about nonsense you didn't understand in order to refer to a post in which you asserted that grammatical devices entailed logical inconsistencies (oh, and that this matters somehow).
You should apologize for asserting your opponent's arguments were invalid
You proposed an argument which cannot possibly be valid. Why on earth would I accept that you have any understanding of logic or validity such that this claim is anything other than meaningless?

And you'll be happy to know I forgave every one of your ad hominems
...whilst failing to provide
1) any evidence you have any familiarity with the relevant research or any familiarity with scientific research in general
2) a basic grasp of logic
3) the ability to propose an argument that isn't a priori and prima facie illogical and self-contradictory.


Atheism most certainly is a "default" position---at least, to the extent that the following are default positions:
As demonstrated using basic logic, this extent is 0.
To claim that atheism is not the default state, you have only two choices:
Thank you for adding to your basic inability to address simple logic by extending said inability to addressing linguistics, (lexical) semantics, epistemology, modality, and so much more. Were you fluent in another language and not fluent in English, you couldn't even (necessarily) make this statement. Were you familiar with basic, introductory logic, you would realize that this assertion is utterly wrong. To assert that there exists a "default state" in even the most introductory, basic logical framework is to assert that anybody who has such a state holds that its complement/negation is true.
Argue that evidence (of some kind) distinguishes belief in god from belief in firebreathing dragons, leprechauns, robot solipsism---or any other member of a set of (literally) infinite possible things to believe in. But this concedes that belief in gods is a positive claim, which requires evidence, and for which the default position is---by definition---non-belief.
1) This isn't at all "by definition" the default position
2) Every non-belief necessarily logically entails belief (If I don't believe in god, then necessarily I don't believe the proposition "god exists" is true).
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Atheism most certainly is a "default" position---at least, to the extent that the following are default positions:
  • A-"firebreathing-dragons-are-real"-ism
  • A-"there's-an-invisible-leprechaun-on-my-shoulder"-ism
  • A-"I'm-a-robot"-ism
To claim that atheism is not the default state, you have only two choices:
  1. Argue that evidence (of some kind) distinguishes belief in god from belief in firebreathing dragons, leprechauns, robot solipsism---or any other member of a set of (literally) infinite possible things to believe in. But this concedes that belief in gods is a positive claim, which requires evidence, and for which the default position is---by definition---non-belief.
  2. Argue that nothing distinguishes belief in god from belief in anything else: every member of that infinite set of all possible possibilities? However fanciful, they're all equally likely. Except... in a set of infinite possibilities, there exist infinite contradictions for any one member---and this means, if all of those possibilities are equally likely, that any one possibility is rendered infinitely unlikely by its own infinite contradictions. After all, if we have contradictory beliefs and no evidence to distinguish one from another... we're just playing the odds. And so every indistinguishable possibility gets dragged into an indecipherable mess of background static.
In either case, nonbelief---a-"whatever"-ism---is the default. Hell, a-"Theory of Gravity"-ism is the default: Evidence, and evidence alone, has the power to elevate a possibility from background static, and it's why no one's an a-"gravity"-ist today. (Has it really taken a bajillion posts to get us here?)
Or make argument that babies are atheists.
Or make argument that NOT believing in a god IS a matter of choice AND that choice does not require proving.
see Webster's
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Belief in God is Part of Human Nature - Oxford Study - Telegraph

"Humans are naturally predisposed to believe in gods and life after death, according to a major three-year international study.

Led by two academics at Oxford University, the £1.9 million study found that human thought processes were “rooted” to religious concepts."

The rest can be found at the link.
Actually the topic was handled in experiment with children......that's right.....someone used children as guinea pigs....

Given a set of circumstances that include influence of adults.....
children are EASILY convinced of things in action of which they cannot see.

simply stated.....you can deceive a child.
they will believe what you tell them....
you are the adult....

but once we come of age.....we can CHOOSE to continue in belief or not.

Atheism.....is a choice.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Not sure if somebody has already written this, because damn it, someone really should have.

Agnosticism is the default. Agnosticism holds a completely neutral stance, where neither atheism or theism is considered correct. When you choose to believe or not believe (which honestly IS a choice, considering it to not be a choice takes away free will from the individual) you have choosen something to believe in, and in this discussion, you have chosen a side.
Agnosticism speaks to what a person knows, atheism/theism to what a person believes. If you do not believe in God - the default is to be atheist..
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
....which is still a choice.....so not actually a default...

The defs I found lean to a lack of decision....resulting from the notion....
such things cannot be known.
Remaining uncommitted is still a choice.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
Agnosticism speaks to what a person knows, atheism/theism to what a person believes. If you do not believe in God - the default is to be atheist..

It can reflect that lack of knowledge of the concept of God. Atheism is linked with theism. If one has no concept of God or theism then they are not an atheist, they are agnostic since they lack knowledge itself. The default would be agnostic and ignorance not atheism. This is no more than assimilation of agnosticism into atheism without basis
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Scintillating rebuttal. I, for one, am completely convinced.

You've refuted three years of Oxford research and convinced me that the scientists involved are all a part of some sick and twisted conspiracy with your in-depth investigative reporting. Nicely done! The next time I speak to the Queen, I'll put in a request that you be knighted for your heroic deed.

:p

Argument for this supposed refutation would be nice. Empty claims are just that, empty.

You are linking an newspaper article not a study. The author may not be representing the study properly. Link the actually study as your source is hearsay from a non-expert. You do not know how reliable your own source is thus your argument is based on fallacious arguments from authority. Find the study otherwise your article is just that, an article.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
It can reflect that lack of knowledge of the concept of God. Atheism is linked with theism. If one has no concept of God or theism then they are not an atheist, they are agnostic since they lack knowledge itself. The default would be agnostic and ignorance not atheism. This is no more than assimilation of agnosticism into atheism without basis
I disagree, those without the concept of god or theism are implicit atheists. Atheism is agnostic.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I disagree, those without the concept of god or theism are implicit atheists. Atheism is agnostic.

Atheism is relational to theism not God. Theism is relational to God since it is the claim of theism. It is the rejection of theism as true ie belief is unjustified and irrational. Agnostic stands on it's own in between or as a further parameter of each. It is not a form of atheism on to itself. Even Flew, the creator of the term, called it sexed up agnosticism and provided zero arguments for this change. You might as well called ignorance atheism as well
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Atheism is relational to theism not God.
My apologies, I should have specified Yahweh, not 'God'. Which God are you referring to if not a theistic one?
Theism is relational to God since it is the claim of theism. It is the rejection of theism as true ie belief is unjustified and irrational. Agnostic stands on it's own in between or as a further parameter of each. It is not a form of atheism on to itself. Even Flew, the creator of the term, called it sexed up agnosticism and provided zero arguments for this change. You might as well called ignorance atheism as well
Flew created the term 'atheism'? Sorry, but no he did not.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Only because you're wording it that way. If I've never heard of fairies, there'd be nothing in which to believe or disbelieve. Not believing requires a subject, something to not believe.
You had only two options. Either

1. You believed in the existence of fairies.
2. You did not believe in the existence of fairies.

Only option two is available for a person who has never heard of fairies.
 
  • A-"atheism"-ism
  • A-"non-theism"-ism
  • A-"I-have-a-position"-ism
etc. We have multiple formally defined (and empirically applied) systems of belief functions (e.g., those found in subjective or Bayesian analysis or modal logics), epistemology, epistemic modality (in cognitive science/linguistics, linguistic typology, etc.), epistemic logics, and so forth, yet all this is thrown aside in order to define an inconsistent, self-contradictory notion of default positions in terms of a grammatical device (affixation) and the following algorithm...
As important to genuine philosophical inquiry as Bayesian analysis, modal logics "and" epistemology are (an oddly redundant catch-all for you to throw into the middle of a list of specifics---but at six syllables it certainly complemented that tactical broadside of intimidating jargon!), the default belief when presented with a claim of existence is hardly a question that requires anyone to go bravely adventuring into such dark and tangled woods (I wonder, how many people have fallen for this ploy of yours?).
1) Let P be any proposition or lexeme N.
Now. Since the principle of charity means nothing to you (no offense---this is the Internet, after all), I see I'll have to be much more careful with my phrasing.

For starters, P cannot be "any proposition or lexeme." It's true, I didn't explicitly state this---my bad!---but all three of my examples shared a common and obvious trait (one that you shrewdly neglected in each of your counterexamples)*(EDIT: This is neither true nor fair, and I apologize. Please see footnote.)

Premise (1), clarified, is this:

1) Let [P] be any existential proposition---i.e., any claim proposing the existence of thing [N], for which the statements "[N] exists" and "[N] does not exist" are both (a) intelligible/meaningful and (b) mutually exclusive

Note, as an aside, that this immediately excludes all of your fun counterexamples---they rely on grammar, whereas I'm merely using grammar as a illustrative device. Anywho, I'm quite happy with your interpretation of (2) and (3)...
2) Prefix "A" to N.
3) Post-pose/suffix "-ism" to N
... but your hilarious (I'm serious: "agglutination" is the greatest word ever) dismissal of the rest of my argument ...
4) Conclude that this agglutination procedure provides the default epistemic stance relative to the truth value/existence of the proposition/lexeme N.
... missed a few steps, to say the least.

In my third (and final) attempt to engage you with the meat of my argument, I'll restate it... again:

Because the set of all possible [N]'s (i.e. all possible things that could exist) is infinite---practically-speaking, if not mathematically so---it follows that, when presented with the proposed existence of any single member of that set, you have two choices:
  1. Distinguish that single [N] from the infinite set of all possible [N]'s, using any form of evidence or reasoning
    • e.g. "Gravity [a thing that could exist] is distinguished from invisible leprechauns holding my feet to the floor [another thing that could exist] because satellites are affected by gravity despite the fact that they lack feet."
  2. Or DON'T distinguish that single [N] from the infinite set of all possible [N]'s.
    • e.g. "Gravity is a thing that could exist, and leprechauns are a thing that could exist, and fairies are a thing that could exist, and air is a thing that could exist, and the sedatives you're injecting into my arm is a thing that could exist, and this padded room is a thing that could exist, and ..."
Behind Door #1: By admitting that each member of the infinite set of possible [N]'s must be distinguished from its neighbours before it can be believed, you establish a prerequisite for belief. And in the absence of this prerequisite, the default position is lack of belief.

Behind Door #2: If you don't distinguish one [N] from its infinite set, then you have no basis to treat one [N] any differently from any other: If you "maybe" believe in one [N], then you "maybe" believe in all of them---a transparently absurd position (and we've only set the bar at "maybe"!). Indeed, when faced with an infinite set of possibilities, all of which must be treated equally (remember, you aren't distinguishing any one from any other), only one position isn't transparently absurd: the default position is lack of belief.

See? We didn't need to break out the machetes and go hacking through the underbrush of Bayesian analysis, for in this case, all roads lead to Rome.

* EDIT: I was wrong, and worst of all, I was wrong while being all snide and combative (the air was a bit thin up on my high horse). I did not phrase all my "A-[N]-ism" examples such that all the [N]'s satisfied my revised premise, and so my accusation that you deliberately ignored those non-existent commonalities was unfounded and unfair. I do apologize.

However, I maintain that each of my examples does reference an existential claim that satisfies revised premise (1), and that's of key importance: I'm not trying to win via word games, but by proving that, when faced with virtually infinite possibilities, the only default position that makes sense is non-belief.

Here is how I would have rephrased those earlier examples (and, indeed, how I was remembering them when I originally wrote this post):

  • A-"firebreathing-dragons-are-real"-ism = A-"fire-breathing dragons"-ism
  • A-"there's-an-invisible-leprechaun-on-my-shoulder"-ism = A-"invisible shoulder-leprechauns"-ism
  • A-"I'm-a-robot"-ism = A-"the wires and circuitry under my skin"-ism
.... Hell, a-"Theory of Gravity"-ism (= a-"gravity"-ism) is the default....
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I think it's easier to say....atheism is a choice.
The default requires the noun....god .....to be unheard.
not experienced in any discussion.

That condition would not be atheism.
it would be ignorance.
not knowing the word.....god.....would be ignorance.

Having hear the word spoken....the concept begins to form...
and the ability to choose forms with it.
 
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